How forumites have evolved (or not) on equal marriage

[Sbane]

I never "evolved " on this, and I am older than 25.

So?  Is everyone expected to think the way you do?  Not everyone thinks and behaves according to rigid demographic trends.

You seem to think along American political trends.....

[LastVoter]

I'd say I never opposed gay marriage, but didn't really care much for the issue until about 5 years ago(sometime in high school). I was also not a prude, so it was hard for me to understand significance of marriage to people(I'm sure Mecha will like this part). I'll admit that I exhibited some homophobic behaviors in elementary/middle school.

[Sbane]

I notice that my name nowhere appears. I had it all "figured out" before most of your were born.

You didn't figure everything out.

[Holmes]

I notice that my name nowhere appears. I had it all "figured out" before most of your were born.

What a pioneer. I tip my gay hat to you.

[Vosem]

Meh. Before I became interested in politics (~2009), it wasn't a topic I thought of frequently, so I can't really say I had an opinion on it. Certainly my basic position (it's unfair that gay people can't have marriage but straight people can) hasn't really shifted since then, but my attitude towards it certainly has -- I remember in 2009, reading about the referendum in Maine on SSP and rooting against gay marriage out of the logic "yes, gays should be able to get married, but electoral defeats will demoralize the American left and depress turnout and that's more important." In hindsight, such a position seems very mean, impetuous, and childish (and not really relevant to anything whatsoever, but that applies to all my political positions to this day, so...)

Today, as I think I've made clear many times, I fully support the equalization of marriage nationwide, either on a state-by-state basis or by a full-on 1960s-style constitutional amendment. People's rights are more important than turnout calculations.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I never "evolved " on this, and I am older than 25.

So?  Is everyone expected to think the way you do?  Not everyone thinks and behaves according to rigid demographic trends.

You seem to think along American political trends.....

Exactly.

OK here's another example. Let's imagine a College Democrats meeting in 2008. How many people present would you expect to oppose gay marriage (actually oppose gay marriage, not take a pragmatic "I don't care if it's gay marriage or civil unions, either is fine by me" type stance.)? Even better, let's imagine it's in California, how many do you expect would support Prop 8? Because there was no logical position against gay marriage and against Prop 8, you can't say it's unneeded because gay marriage WAS legal without it unlike most states with such votes, and you can't argue it goes too far and bans other unions because it didn't and California's civil unions statute was left intact. If you support civil unions but not gay marriage, supporting Prop 8 is a no brainer. But I don't think you'd find many College Democrats voting for Obama and then yes on Prop 8. But this would've supposedly been Ben's vote and stance if he was born three years earlier and lived in California.

[Mr. Morden]

BRTD, is your contention that Ben actually holds liberal views in his heart, but lies about them to the forum, and publicly espouses "moderate hero" positions that he doesn't really believe in?  Or do you think that his desire to be a moderate hero has actually caused him to genuinely believe in moderate hero positions?

I think you're suggesting the former, but the latter strikes me as being at least as plausible.  People frequently talk themselves into believing weird things as a consequence of their tribal identification.  Especially if we're talking about the logical processes supporting the political positions of a 15 year old kid.

[Sbane]

BRTD, is your contention that Ben actually holds liberal views in his heart, but lies about them to the forum, and publicly espouses "moderate hero" positions that he doesn't really believe in?  Or do you think that his desire to be a moderate hero has actually caused him to genuinely believe in moderate hero positions?

I think you're suggesting the former, but the latter strikes me as being at least as plausible.  People frequently talk themselves into believing weird things as a consequence of their tribal identification.  Especially if we're talking about the logical processes supporting the political positions of a 15 year old kid.

I think the latter is more true, resulting in him espousing the weird views espoused by the political establishment (who in many cases do so due to political considerations, like Obama being against Prop 8 but being against gay marriage. It doesn't make sense but he was trying to win Ohio. What political office was Ben trying to win?). Ben loves the political establishment. I don't think he has even one view that is outside the mainstream even a little.

[memphis]

Well it really isn't not natural, and it's probably partly nature's way of...

Lolwut?

[Torie]

I notice that my name nowhere appears. I had it all "figured out" before most of your were born.

You didn't figure everything out.

I meant in the political realm. In the personal realm, I am a mere child. It's a grand adventure!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, is your contention that Ben actually holds liberal views in his heart, but lies about them to the forum, and publicly espouses "moderate hero" positions that he doesn't really believe in?  Or do you think that his desire to be a moderate hero has actually caused him to genuinely believe in moderate hero positions?

I think you're suggesting the former, but the latter strikes me as being at least as plausible.  People frequently talk themselves into believing weird things as a consequence of their tribal identification.  Especially if we're talking about the logical processes supporting the political positions of a 15 year old kid.

Probably a little bit of both. It's tough to see someone with Ben's background having any type of objection to gay marriage instilled in him so he probably started with no such objection, but because he didn't want to be seen as too radical he talked himself into coming up with his previous stance and then started to believe it. I did the same thing to myself with left wing positions when I got into the scene. But I think Sbane is dead on here. Politicians often take views that are silly and contradictory a lot because of political considerations, but they make no sense for anyone who isn't a politician with those considerations to take. One thing about being a Moderate Hero basically means trying to shoehorn yourself into these positions. Ben was also staunchly against legalizing marijuana for awhile which I'm sure he achieved by taking cognitive dissonance on all the evidence about how dangerous marijuana actually was.

For another example, try imagining a non-politician with the same set of positions on the issues and tendency to change on them as Mitt Romney. It doesn't make any sense, but I'm sure there were "moderate" Republicans out there who tried to justify to themselves that it was a good and logical set of positions that they agreed with because they were all good and moderate and not like those Tea Party extremists rather than just admitting Romney is a sleazy politician who changes his positions easily but that they'd vote for him anyway because of other concerns.

[Beet]

I evolved exactly once, in late 2003 or early 2004, to switch from "haven't thought about it in depth" to "support." However, even by then I remember it had been getting talked about for some time. The current round of momentum in favor of SSM goes all the way back to when Vermont enacted civil unions in the summer 2000, or possibly even earlier to when Ellen DeGeneres came out in 1997. The only time where it felt the momentum was against us was after the 2004 election, because both sides tended to spin Bush's victory as being helped by all the SSM referenda that were up that year. IIRC there was some worry that Republicans would try the same thing in 2006.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Within the past year-and-a-half or so, I've evolved from opposing recognition in any form to supporting civil unions.

[k-onmmunist]

2004-2007: oppose
2007-2008: civil unions
2008-: support

[afleitch]

A special shout out goes to usefulidiot who went from being pro gay and pro gay marriage to worrying about a 'homosexual agenda' and not wishing to take part in his daughters life if she grew up and announced she was gay. That was just so heartbreaking I felt it wasn't fair to quote it.

[RI]

My journey has been more complicated than most of yours, though in many ways my position hasn't changed much other than in tone:

I absolutely believe that homosexuals should be allowed to marry, and I believe it to be a great travesty that they currently can not do so. However, I believe that the best way to go about this is to separate the state and the institution of marriage. The state’s only responsibility is to ensure the rights of the couples. So, I would let the individual churches or related secular institutions decide who they will or will not marry. After such, they state should issue a civil union to the couple, gay or straight, that protects their rights. The ultimate goal is that there will be no distinction between a gay or a straight marriage in the eyes of the law, and hopefully everyone else.

17. Should gay marriage be legalized?
Lean yes, but marriage in general should be much more difficult to attain. Covenant marriage should be the standard.

...my ambivalence-to-acceptance of gay marriage.

I would be more comfortable with it if gay marriage supporters were half as concerned about the institution of marriage itself as they were about using the issue as a tool to route out "bigots" and feel superior about themselves. Not all are that way of course, but if often seems like it. It just seems like so many liberals care so much about gay marriage on one hand, but simultaneous talk out of the other side of their mouth about how marriage is an archaic institution that should be done away with and about how progressive they are for opposing this anachronistic holdover. You can't have it both ways.

Gay marriage is one of the least important big issues in American politics.

[The Mikado]

Supported since 2003, but it's less fun to support it now than it used to be.  I think I might have some hipster streak in me because now that it's become popular I just get sick hearing about the issue, while when there was a vast majority against it it was fun to support it.

TL;DR Mikado hates being on the same side as most people, mainly because he doesn't much like people in general.

[Torie]

...
... Mikado hates being on the same side as most people, mainly because he doesn't much like people in general.

Hmmm ...that is sort of the place that I used to be underneath my rather polite veneer. It's not a good place imo. I feel much better about myself having left it.

[7,052,770]

I honestly couldn't remember and was a bit afraid to check my old posts, but:

gay marriage {support fully}

gay marriage- makes no impact on my life, so let them get married

Whew.

[The Mikado]

...
... Mikado hates being on the same side as most people, mainly because he doesn't much like people in general.

Hmmm ...that is sort of the place that I used to be underneath my rather polite veneer. It's not a good place imo. I feel much better about myself having left it.

Where am I going to get my self-righteous feelings of moral superiority if I don't support something self-evidently good that the majority of people inexplicably oppose? 



Now that those people agree with me, I'm not special.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I opposed same-sex marriage rights until about 2007. Then I came to support.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

TL;DR Mikado hates being on the same side as most people, mainly because he doesn't much like people in general.

And this is why we get along!

[Thomas D]

As soon as I knew of the term 'Gay Marriage' I supported it and I'm 31.

Of course I'm not a 'Knisey 0' so take that for what it's worth.

[Dr. Cynic]

I was always for it as long back as I can remember anyway. To me, it's not a political issue. It's about love. Politics doesn't come into it for me. I would stand aside anyone who said that anyone who loves each other has the right to be married.

I realize marriage is more now a contract and married couples get benefits that non-married people don't, but to me, it's about more than that. My views have always been the same and I doubt they'd ever change.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Let me put it this way: If you went to one of my shows circa 2003, how many people present do you think would be against gay marriage, even if they supported civil unions? It'd probably be about equal to supporters of the Iraq War (that is essentially no one.)

Nobody cares.  Only you could turn gay marriage into a stupid discussion on one of your shows.

You were actually awful all those years ago. I'd forgotten.

I'm not saying that all traditional marriages are good.  But starting off with a bad, sinful marriage won't be good for the child.

On DADT

I just have to say absolutely not on this one--I am a hard core conservative, "anti-gay" person…

And on which forumite was the most…

anti gay rights? - Myself

It was once a badge of honour back in the day

I really have to say... that first one and the second one really make me cringe.