The meaning of mortal life.

[Beet]

Let us, approach this from a purely secular perspective for a moment.

The moment before death, is typically the most unhappy in a person's life. Not only are they in physical discomfort, but all that they know is about to be lost, and the world will go on. But that is not the defining aspect of death. The defining aspect is surrender, knowing that no matter how scared, unhappy or resistant you may be, what shall happen shall happen and in the end the person must accept it. You are going to return to the elements, to the universe, so to speak. Whatever happens after this moment is of no concern to you. 'Beet would not want you to desecrate his memory' is foolishness. Beet no longer cares what you do. You could dig up his body, stomp his grave, he cares less than anything he ever cared about before. He is dead. He has been dead from the moment he was born mortal, like you.

What is the meaning of life, then? What does one leave behind after this? One leaves behind two things that may be of significance. One, one leaves behind the impact one had on the world. If you saved somebody's life, then whatever that person does, if they outlive you, was only because of you. That was 'your' impact on the universe. If you wrote a book or gave down a teaching for future generations, then you supposedly live on through that connection. Or, if you gave your DNA, your sperm, to the next generation, then you to some extent live on through them. Your 'seed' at least, lives on. And whatever they do, or the generations after them do, was only because of you.

These are the meanings of life from a purely secular standpoint. Comments?

[afleitch]

In short life is to be lived. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the last moments before death is 'unhappy'; for many who are suffering or just too old for the world death is an immense relief. When I die, memory of me will live on either through family or through friends but eventually I will be forgotten as indeed my ancestors have been. They weren't famous and those who knew them have also died. But I found them, so in a way they mean something again. Prior to my assembly inside my mother I didn't exist as a person but the very atoms that made me which came from exploded stars (so awesome) did exist. When I die, the matter that made me will still be there but become parts of other things. My thoughts and memories exist now as electrical impulses in my brain and nothing more. When I die, they stop. But I can record them down so in a way that's how I 'live' through memories and through others. So that's what my life is about; having a good life for me and for others and leaving behind a good legacy if I can.

[Blue3]

I wouldn't say the moment before death is always unhappy. Many people are calm, or even happy, as they die. (of course it also depends on the manner of death)


The meaning of life is to love. To learn how to better love.






When people say they want to live forever, what does that mean?
*Your body? The cells in your body are replaced every 7 years. People now get artifical hearts and other organs, even artificial limbs. You are not your body. If they found a way to give people a new body, for when their old one is worn out, isn't it still "you" in the new body?
It seems obvious, thinking it out, that you are not your body. Besides, aren't there some things about your body that you would rather change, anyways?
*Your memories? So when a person suffers amnesia, they technically die? That's not right. If a person were to live for thousands of years, eventually forgetting everything from the first 100 years of their life (even their original name and their parents), it's still the same person.
It seems obvious, thinking it out, that you are not your memories. Besides, aren't there some memories that you would rather forget, anyways?
*Your personality? Do you have the same personality now that you did 10 years ago? Do you really think you'll have the same personality now in 50 years? If you were to live for thousands of years, you would gradually but inevitably have a completely different personality.
It seems obvious, thinking it out, that you are not your personality. Besides, aren't there some things about your personality that you would rather change, anyways?

So... if you are not your body, or your memories, or you personality... then who are you?

And if you want to live forever, what do you really want to live forever?




For me, I think the best of me is the part that Loves. If I were to live forever, I'd like it to be with the ones I love. If there is a heaven, I hope it's an eternal reunion with all my loved ones.
From studying all the major religions and philosophies, it's obvious that all that really matters is that we love one another.

If I were to live forever, I hope that thing that lasts forever is the part of me that loves. Life is all about loving, and learning how to better love.

So who am I, really? I am Love.

And Love is eternal. Everything else... monuments, bloodlines, civilizations, even stars and the universe itself... pass away. Wherever and whenever there is love, I will live, for love is what I really am.




And to get deeper into it, based on my religious beliefs:

God is also Love. When my body and memories and personality pass away, then I will truly be in eternal union with God. For God is love, all those who love dwell in God, and God dwells in all those who love. Jesus dwells in the Father because of his ultimate sacrifice out of love on the cross, and the Father dwells in Jesus. Jesus dwells in us who believe in love, and we dwell in Jesus... therefore, through Jesus, we dwell in God, and God dwells in us. All you need is love.

One leaves behind two things that may be of significance. One, one leaves behind the impact one had on the world. If you saved somebody's life, then whatever that person does, if they outlive you, was only because of you. That was 'your' impact on the universe. If you wrote a book or gave down a teaching for future generations, then you supposedly live on through that connection. Or, if you gave your DNA, your sperm, to the next generation, then you to some extent live on through them. Your 'seed' at least, lives on. And whatever they do, or the generations after them do, was only because of you.

Those things do not last forever. One day, everyone will be dead, all life will be gone, and the universe itself will have ceased to exist.

The only options are love, and to live in each eternal moment. (the two are not necessarily incompatible, either)

[angus]

Comments?

In CARLHAYDEN style,

(1) you seem to be confusing life with death

(2) you claim to have intimate knowledge with what one is feeling in the moment of death, which renders your credibility suspect and your post confusing

(3) the meaning of life is simple:  food and sex.  Ask any organism and anyone, no matter whether he is one of the single-celled prokaryotes or a member of the the self-ordained most highly-evolved species, will tell you that it is all about urges you can't control.  There are really only two things you need and they are food and sex.  One keeps your species alive and the other keeps you alive long enough to keep your species alive.  

(4) "What does one leave behind?"  A few unpaid parking tickets, some unpaid bar tabs, a whole bunch of piss and sh**t and, if you're lucky, a progeny or two.

[Beet]

(1) you seem to be confusing life with death

No, I am merely looking ahead.

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I been in situations where I thought I might die, and I have dreamed of being in situations where certain death was imminent. During these times, my mind tricked itself into believing that death was imminent. Nonetheless, my posts are best guesses, of course. It's not hard to understand if you try.

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So you agree with me that progeny is one of the profound meanings of life. Of course, I disagree that sex is included, but I do agree that offspring is included.

[Beet]

In short life is to be lived. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the last moments before death is 'unhappy'; for many who are suffering or just too old for the world death is an immense relief.

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If it is expected, perhaps; but in that case the person has already gone through great emotional turmoil. But most of the time when death comes, it is unexpected. It is never something that any of us has ever experienced until the moment comes, so we are all newbies to it. As I said, I suspect it is a time of great fear and terror, but ultimately, of acceptance and surrender.

Re: Love. Personally, for me, yes. I believe that love if fulfilling and can lead to greater happiness than anything else, and that in a way, it is a form of humility that acknowledges our mortality. But love is very psychologically based, and I have never seen any evidence to suggest that love scientifically leads to the greatest and deepest happiness. Did Stalin and Pol Pot and bin Laden love? Was love the meaning of their lives? I can't say. But I can say what impact they had on the world, because that is external to them, and can be definitely described.

[anvi]

I think it's pretty easy to create meaning in mortal life.  Mortality is just the boundary that gives our lives their limit, and what we draw inside that shape, the content of life, that is our opportunity to create meaning.  We have that opportunity every moment of every day.  And yes, there are many things that we can do and initiate that will outlive us, and it's important to live with consideration for that too.  To me, doing things I find meaningful is the easy part, the fun part, the most satisfying part.

I admit, however, that I've loathed death ever since I could think.  I was born with a ventricular septal defect (a hole between the two ventricles in the heart), which, before surgical techniques were invented in the 20th century that repair it routinely, would have paralyzed me before my teens and killed me before I was twenty.  I had a corrective surgery when I was eight, but from the moment I could think to the days after I woke up from the procedure, I was afraid I would die.  And, while I am unremittingly grateful for the extra years that modern medicine and human compassion have given me since, I still worry a lot about dying, whenever I have to go the hospital, whenever I step on a plane, whenever I think at the end of a day that I now have one day less.  I don't fear death itself; it's as much of an absolute blank as was the time before I was born, as were the times I was under general anesthesia.  There is literally nothing to fear in it.  It's the possibility that life might end before I've experienced all I want to experience, before I am tired and ready to let go, that's what I loathe.  And that, of course, could happen very easily, in an unfathomably large number of ways that cannot be anticipated or prepared for, any day at all.  All my study of philosophy has not prepared me at all for that, and I have no wise words to impart about it...only this tepid confession.  But maybe the only thing I can get out of this dread of dying is a reminder of how much, despite all its difficulties and challenges, I really do love being alive.  And I suspect that I will just continue to hold onto that love for life, and let it inspire and motivate what I do, until the grip of mortality inevitably wins, and pries me loose from it all. 

[angus]

I disagree that sex is included, but I do agree that offspring is included.

?!

I'll assume either that you're joking or that you have some secret formula that took everyone else 4 billion years to figure out.

As for Love, sure Stalin had it.  He was only about 5' 6" tall, but he was very handsome in his youth, and well built.  Had a nice country girl who bore him a child.  His mother picked out the bride and she died 3 years after they were married, but he went into a deep, dark funk when she died.  Later he married again.  I never know what to think about second marriages, and that one was 22 years his junior, so I'll leave off any comments about his love for her, but for sure he loved the first one.  Hitler knew love too.  The daughter of Franklin Roosevelt's ambassador to Germany during his second administration was a major slut.  Tom Wolfe likened her to "a butterfly hovering around my penis" and she knew her way around Berlin very well.  She described Hitler as clammy and sweaty and horny, and he struck her as the sort of guy who would be a jealous boyfriend.  Still, she said his placid blue eyes had their charms.  Maybe he was just in lust, but when you're dictating policy to a good chunk of the world's population, what's the difference?  And Mussolini.  And Pol Pot and bin Laden and Ghengis Khan and all the rest.  They're as horny as anyone else.  

As for death, I've always thought of it as a convenient analogy.  Sort of like cold.  See, there's heat.  Heat is real.  Temperature is real.  You can calculate temperature based on the root-mean-square average velocity of a cannonical ensemble of molecules.  Temperature is proportional to energy, and to the square of the average velocity of molecules.  Heat finds its way into the First Law of Thermodynamics precisely because it is one of the two ways to transfer energy.  Cold is just the absence of heat.  It has no real physical definition.  Similarly, death is just a little period at the end of the sentence that is a life.  You can't claim to know it--at least not yet--and neither can Ernest Hemingway, despite his valiant efforts at describing it through the eyes of others.  

No matter, your thread is about life, not death.  Stop conflating the two.  One is meaningful and real, and involves a mad dash for immortality in a physical form--namely, procreation.  The other is a convenient term to describe the end of that meaningful, mad dash.  

The best death is probably a quick one.  My father died when I was in the eighth grade.  It was quick and merciful and unexpected.  My mother, on the other hand, died an "expected" death.  It was slow and agonizing and one I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  I respectfully disagree with your naive notion that the "expected" death might somehow offer solace.  Give me a quick, unexpected death.  I'd rather not contemplate my own mortality any more than is necessary.

[DemPGH]

Food and sex are evolutionary impulses that are essential in humans getting to where we are. And so what is the meaning of life to a mortal, conscious mind? To make ourselves better - at this point in a variety of ways. it's why we build everything from a rocket to a city. We strive for something better, and we strive to use our reason and our astonishing ability to make tools that render us stronger and more capable than what we are by nature so that we can become better, more learned, and stronger than we are at present. Almost at the beginning we separated ourselves from the animals because we knew we had to do so to survive, and it happens on an individual level as well as a societal level - sometimes such that the betterment of society and the individual come into conflict. It's quite remarkable, and it moves the next generation ad infinitum.

[Free Speech Enjoyer]

What a depressing thread.

[John Dibble]

There is no inherent meaning to life. Eating and procreation isn't the meaning of life, they are just something life does. If you would like your life to have meaning simply pick what you would like your life to mean and pursue whatever is necessary for that - I don't think it really needs to get more complicated that that.

[Beet]

angus, I know this thread is about life, hence the title. A secular thread about death would have to be Buddhist or some sh**t, it reminds me of the one handed clap.

What a depressing thread.

I am depressed.

[Blue3]

Nobody responding to the ideas in my post

[DemPGH]

Nobody responding to the ideas in my post

Well, it's long and personal, but it is interesting, so let me give you something. First, the bit about God and Jesus is you. And you more or less said it. The best part of you is that which loves, and to you God and Jesus are love. I think if most folks really examined themselves as you do, they would find that Jesus and God, in the absence of information and knowledge about Jesus and God (which we do not have), are little more than extensions of the people thinking about them. I don't mean that to come off negatively. There is serious psychology on this, and there are references that could be cited, and you could turn them up by Googling.

As far as living forever, I think life for most folks is good enough that they don't want it to end so long as they are healthful and able to enjoy life, and I think that the vast majority of folks are long-term optimists. This again is the evolutionary impulse, and it seems to me that most folks don't have to look too hard to find something that gives them purpose.

For me, I am very curious about where we will be 500 years from now, and it's a shame I won't be here to see it. I am also curious as to what projects I could be working on at that point. Of course there's always the chance that I wouldn't want to see it, but I think things are gradually improving to where I would.

[angus]

What a depressing thread.

all beet threads are depressing, just as all beet posts are depressing.

This one is a little more depressing that most, however.  Beet, a secular thread about the meaning of mortal life doesn't have to be Buddhist, in fact it doesn't have to involve any religion.  I'd assumed, in fact, that you wanted to keep Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, etc., out of it.  (I also like the fact that you managed to keep your depressing economics theories out of it.)  Douglas Adams says that the answer is 42 (or 43 if you round out the nibbly bits.)  You can call it love, but there's a natural tendency to protect one's progeny and one's mate.  It's a drive you cannot control.  The self-replicating molecules which evolved in the primordial soup came together against astonishingly long odds, but when you have a billion years to roll dice, eventually you roll a 2 or a 12, right?  Those chemical reactions force the only meaning that you need in life.  They probably even force you to give it a name, after a few billion years, once you become sufficiently complicated to start thinking about stuff like naming things.  Call it love, if you want.  I call it food and sex.  Well, not when I'm talking to my family.  Then, I call it love.  Just keepin' it superficial.  More peaceful that way. 

[Joe Biden 2020]

The purpose of life for everyone, regardless of religious preference, is to know God and make Him known.

[angus]

Nobody responding to the ideas in my post

okay, I'll bite:

Let's say we really believe that George Washington, who could not tell a lie, chopped down his father's cherry tree with an axe.  His father was angry about the destruction, but proud that his son told the truth.  Now, that axe goes into a storage shed for many years, and eventually the storage shed catches fire.  After the fire, someone finds the axe with a badly damaged wooden handle but the metal part is still perfectly intact.  So he replaces the axe handle and has a good axe.  One that might be worth a lot of money because, after all, it was George Washington's axe that he used to chop down his father's cherry tree.  He sells the axe for a nice profit, and eventually the axe finds its way into use on the Western frontier.  At some point the axe tip, but not the wooden handle, is badly damaged by a herd of stampeding buffalo, so the metal part is replaced.  Eventually that axe finds its way into a flea market in San Francisco, where I buy it.  I display it on my wall as George Washington's axe.  Now, you come over and take a look at it and I tell you its history.  Do you (a) offer to buy it because you're a collector of American memorabilia?  (b) call me a chump because I got ripped off?  (c) tell me that it's not George Washington's axe because neither the handle nor the metal part are any longer part of the axe?  (d)  argue that it is impressive that the axe is still in existence, and it is the same axe because even though all parts of it have been replaced, it still occupies the same space, intrinsically?

[opebo]

How about deceiving yourself in some way so distractingly that you don't think about mortality (that you 'lose your painful awareness of' mortality)?

[afleitch]

I think you have to be careful in using the 'Ship of Theseus' paradox here as you can end up making this thread more depressing:) Washington's axe could be argued to be the same axe as it occupies the same space but while it's also an axe, it's also still a 'tree' because of it's wooden handle and it's still say 'iron' because of it's axe-head. An axe or a ship is constructed by men and replaced by men as and when it is needed. When it comes to living things, they replace and repair themselves while living. Indeed it's what makes them 'living' so while I'm repairing myself I am still the same person. While I degrade as I age and the connection in my brain break down so I cannot remember I am still the same person because decay and death is also part of life. However on the flip side at the same time as I am me; living and thinking, I am also still water, carbon and everything in between. Those parts of me do not 'live' and I am just a lucky assembly of other elements. Hell, given the symbiotic relationship between me and bacteria that live on every internal and external surface of my body I may not be able to consider myself as 'me' either.

[Sic Semper Fascistis]

I know I'll sound like an idiot for answering with a cheap and meaningless slogan to a thread to which people have responded with such articulate and thoughtful posts, but the way I've always thought about it is that it is up to each of us to give our life the meaning we want it to have.

[angus]

I think you have to be careful in using the 'Ship of Theseus' paradox here as you can end up making this thread more depressing:)

Ah, better example.  I'd forgotten that one.  Yes, still a tree and so on...  That's where I was going with this.  Just trying to say smart something about Starwatcher's post. 

You touch upon something bigger, though:  We all take ourselves far too seriously.

[tik 🪀✨]

If we can agree that an identity is not just your personality, your memories and experiences, or your physical body because they are not static, what then defines you? I think that it is self awareness. Without this we are simply evolutionarily designed impulses for food and sex and proportion of our species. But with self awareness we became something more. This is theconstant that offers us the illusion of being separate from our bodies and gives usa sense of selfhood.

To me, though, this selfhood is not unique, as we all have it. At its core, I agree with Hofstadter. We are strange loops, machines with enough complexity that we have raised our consciousness to be aware of itself. And even though we have different bodies, experiences, and personalities, we share self awareness in the same way.

What is the purpose of life and death, then? It is to continue and improve ourselves, the species with this unique trait. We are made of the stuff of the universe, so the universe is self aware. So perhaps the question we should be asking is what is the purpose of the universe, if any?

And should we fear death? I don't think so. I do not think I will die, because my "I" at its core is the same a yours. As long as there are self aware creatures, I believe we are in a way immortal and the same as each other.

[afleitch]

"What then is that which is able to conduct a man? Philosophy...keeping the divinity within a man free from violence and unharmed...finally waiting for death with a cheerful mind as being nothing else than a dissolution of the elements, of which every living being is compounded."

Marcus Aurelius

[anvi]

The last two posts bring a lot of ancient Indian stuff to my mind.  Tik sounds like he is talking about Advaita Vedānta.  And Andrew's Aurelius quote about death being the dissolution into the elements reminds me of how someone's death is often described in Sanskrit prose literature, namely with the phrase "saḥ pańcatvam gataḥ," meaning "he went to fiveness."   

[minionofmidas]

The meaning of human life is to serve as leopard nourishment.