Hugo Chavez is still dead

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And this is a major news story.

[Lief 🗽]

Hahaha ChairmanSanchez literally compared Chavez to King Leopold in the other thread? Good lord.

I'd like to echo the thoughts in the other thread commending the late Chavez's rhetorical skills when it came to hyperbole. Greg Grandin's obituary in The Nation describes the brilliance of that infamous "sulfur" flourish better than I can:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Nothing compared to "John Paul II is still dead" we've had in Poland back in 2004.

[Edu]

I don't get why the other thread was locked, most posts were not really that inflammatory and some interesting things were talked about.

And yeah, Chavez speeches filled with hilarious hyperbole were great. I don't really liked the guy, but sometimes I listed to his speeches because they cracked me up. He was definitely good at holding on to your attention (hope no one makes a comment like "Hitler also captivated his audience" or some s**t like that )

[Grumpier Than Thou]

I don't get why the other thread was locked, most posts were not really that inflammatory and some interesting things were talked about.

Because it was a thread to report his death, not bash world leaders and call each other names.

[Velasco]

I watched an interesting interview in television: two academicians expert in international relations, that have played the role of observers in several Venezuelan elections, gave their opinion about the present events.

They were coinciding in the following points:

1) During the years of Chavez in the presidency the level of poverty has diminished dramatically. Chavez gave voice to people who previously had been totally isolated from the political life (the humble classes).

2) Neither in the fight against corruption nor in the endemic violence that suffers the country have been progresses, nor probably a great political will to approach these problems.

3)) The political polarization has come to unbearable ends, even managing to divide families. For the good of the country, the moderate actors in both fields, Chavismo and opposition, should have more a more protagonic role. It's been said from different places that Venezuela needs a reconciliation to go forward. Such thing is not going to happen tomorrow.

[Antonio the Sixth]

3)) The political polarization has come to unbearable ends, even managing to divide families. For the good of the country, the moderate actors in both fields, Chavismo and opposition, should have more a more protagonic role. It's been said from different places that Venezuela needs a reconciliation to go forward. Such thing is not going to happen tomorrow.

This is certainly the most important point of all.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Let the record show that it was Hash, and not me, who used insulting language because he disagreed with me. Tyrants do not deserve respect. If nobody wants to listen to my point, fine. But don't jump on me for doing what you all do. That thread makes me ashamed of the Atlas and it's left, which I once believed tolerated other opinions.

I never said Chavez was King Leopold. I said he deserved the same amount of human respect as him, nothing more. And to call me a neocon is just embarrassing on the part of Obamanation; I am among the most outspoken noninterventionist here.

Now to Chavez, the man of the hour. Did he do great things? Maybe. I am a Libertarian, and I will disagree with him in general. But he was an autocrat, which outweighs everything he did as President. The same logic is applied to Thatcher by all of the left wing posters. But, since they are left wing posters....

Chavez is being treated (here at least) like he was Lula, or Jack Layton. He was not either of those men, who were (in Lula's case, still is) fine human beings who truly cared about people, even if their ideology is different from mine. Chavez belongs in the same category as Mugabe, with the exception that Chavez did not utterly destroy Venezuela, like Mugabe.

[Blue3]

Fidel Castro is going to live forever, isn't he?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Fidel Castro is going to live forever, isn't he?

Unfortunately.

[Vosem]

The day after he was stabbed, Dmitry of Uglich was also still dead

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

If the 20,000 "exiled" (that is such bs, even if Chavez is an autocrat) Venezuelans react like this to Chavez's death, I can't imagine the reaction of the Cubans in Dade County when Castro croaks.

LOL, Conservapedia is claiming Chavez died in December. Can that site get any funnier?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

[angus]

Damn, Al.  Didn't notice your thread.  Excellent title, by the way.   

I'll miss the fat bastard.  I've never actually met him.  I was withing 40 miles of the Venezuelan border as recently as five weeks ago, and enjoyed a long conversation about bats with a young Venezuelan biologist with very smooth, long, brown legs.  Chavez wasn't among the topics that came up during that conversation, as it turns out.  I have also visited countries which border his, but I can't honestly say that I've ever set foot in Venezuela.   Still, he's an icon.  He gave us the goods, and he did it while making nasty about us.  Stepped up and took the place of the now-defunct USSR and propped up a Cuban dictatorship even though his own people could hardly afford it.  Excellent politician.  RIP.

I'm hoping that his hand-picked successor gets past his hand-picked supreme court and continues to give us the goods.  I don't really want to pay UK prices for automotive fuel, much less have to start calling it Petrol.

¡Viva Chavez!

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Let the record show that it was Hash, and not me, who used insulting language because he disagreed with me. Tyrants do not deserve respect. If nobody wants to listen to my point, fine. But don't jump on me for doing what you all do. That thread makes me ashamed of the Atlas and it's left, which I once believed tolerated other opinions.

I never said Chavez was King Leopold. I said he deserved the same amount of human respect as him, nothing more. And to call me a neocon is just embarrassing on the part of Obamanation; I am among the most outspoken noninterventionist here.

Now to Chavez, the man of the hour. Did he do great things? Maybe. I am a Libertarian, and I will disagree with him in general. But he was an autocrat, which outweighs everything he did as President. The same logic is applied to Thatcher by all of the left wing posters. But, since they are left wing posters....

Chavez is being treated (here at least) like he was Lula, or Jack Layton. He was not either of those men, who were (in Lula's case, still is) fine human beings who truly cared about people, even if their ideology is different from mine. Chavez belongs in the same category as Mugabe, with the exception that Chavez did not utterly destroy Venezuela, like Mugabe.

I think your thinking is a little too black-and-white in general sometimes. Not that you can't think that certain actions or patterns of behavior can be absolutely good or absolutely evil--many are--but I think you'd do well to recognize that in most people, even most leaders, sets of both exist. Chavez's autocratic tendencies are a moral and historical blemish upon him, as is the almost uniformly terrible company he kept on the world stage, but I don't think they ipso facto negate everything else about him.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Let the record show that it was Hash, and not me, who used insulting language because he disagreed with me. Tyrants do not deserve respect. If nobody wants to listen to my point, fine. But don't jump on me for doing what you all do. That thread makes me ashamed of the Atlas and it's left, which I once believed tolerated other opinions.

I never said Chavez was King Leopold. I said he deserved the same amount of human respect as him, nothing more. And to call me a neocon is just embarrassing on the part of Obamanation; I am among the most outspoken noninterventionist here.

Now to Chavez, the man of the hour. Did he do great things? Maybe. I am a Libertarian, and I will disagree with him in general. But he was an autocrat, which outweighs everything he did as President. The same logic is applied to Thatcher by all of the left wing posters. But, since they are left wing posters....

Chavez is being treated (here at least) like he was Lula, or Jack Layton. He was not either of those men, who were (in Lula's case, still is) fine human beings who truly cared about people, even if their ideology is different from mine. Chavez belongs in the same category as Mugabe, with the exception that Chavez did not utterly destroy Venezuela, like Mugabe.

I think your thinking is a little too black-and-white in general sometimes. Not that you can't think that certain actions or patterns of behavior can be absolutely good or absolutely evil--many are--but I think you'd do well to recognize that in most people, even most leaders, sets of both exist. Chavez's autocratic tendencies are a moral and historical blemish upon him, as is the almost uniformly terrible company he kept on the world stage, but I don't think they ipso facto negate everything else about him.

But did he really care about the poor of his country? His policies may have helped them, but Chavez was a politician in the end. The man desired power, and he tried it the traditional South American way: a military coup. His regime was about keeping his buddies rich, and staying in power. He did nothing to combat the rising crime or inflation that ravages Venezuela today.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Let the record show that it was Hash, and not me, who used insulting language because he disagreed with me. Tyrants do not deserve respect. If nobody wants to listen to my point, fine. But don't jump on me for doing what you all do. That thread makes me ashamed of the Atlas and it's left, which I once believed tolerated other opinions.

I never said Chavez was King Leopold. I said he deserved the same amount of human respect as him, nothing more. And to call me a neocon is just embarrassing on the part of Obamanation; I am among the most outspoken noninterventionist here.

Now to Chavez, the man of the hour. Did he do great things? Maybe. I am a Libertarian, and I will disagree with him in general. But he was an autocrat, which outweighs everything he did as President. The same logic is applied to Thatcher by all of the left wing posters. But, since they are left wing posters....

Chavez is being treated (here at least) like he was Lula, or Jack Layton. He was not either of those men, who were (in Lula's case, still is) fine human beings who truly cared about people, even if their ideology is different from mine. Chavez belongs in the same category as Mugabe, with the exception that Chavez did not utterly destroy Venezuela, like Mugabe.

I think your thinking is a little too black-and-white in general sometimes. Not that you can't think that certain actions or patterns of behavior can be absolutely good or absolutely evil--many are--but I think you'd do well to recognize that in most people, even most leaders, sets of both exist. Chavez's autocratic tendencies are a moral and historical blemish upon him, as is the almost uniformly terrible company he kept on the world stage, but I don't think they ipso facto negate everything else about him.

But did he really care about the poor of his country? His policies may have helped them, but Chavez was a politician in the end. The man desired power, and he tried it the traditional South American way: a military coup. His regime was about keeping his buddies rich, and staying in power. He did nothing to combat the rising crime or inflation that ravages Venezuela today.

Doesn't the fact that the living conditions of millions of people considerably improved during his presidency matter to you even a little bit?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Let the record show that it was Hash, and not me, who used insulting language because he disagreed with me. Tyrants do not deserve respect. If nobody wants to listen to my point, fine. But don't jump on me for doing what you all do. That thread makes me ashamed of the Atlas and it's left, which I once believed tolerated other opinions.

I never said Chavez was King Leopold. I said he deserved the same amount of human respect as him, nothing more. And to call me a neocon is just embarrassing on the part of Obamanation; I am among the most outspoken noninterventionist here.

Now to Chavez, the man of the hour. Did he do great things? Maybe. I am a Libertarian, and I will disagree with him in general. But he was an autocrat, which outweighs everything he did as President. The same logic is applied to Thatcher by all of the left wing posters. But, since they are left wing posters....

Chavez is being treated (here at least) like he was Lula, or Jack Layton. He was not either of those men, who were (in Lula's case, still is) fine human beings who truly cared about people, even if their ideology is different from mine. Chavez belongs in the same category as Mugabe, with the exception that Chavez did not utterly destroy Venezuela, like Mugabe.

I think your thinking is a little too black-and-white in general sometimes. Not that you can't think that certain actions or patterns of behavior can be absolutely good or absolutely evil--many are--but I think you'd do well to recognize that in most people, even most leaders, sets of both exist. Chavez's autocratic tendencies are a moral and historical blemish upon him, as is the almost uniformly terrible company he kept on the world stage, but I don't think they ipso facto negate everything else about him.

But did he really care about the poor of his country? His policies may have helped them, but Chavez was a politician in the end. The man desired power, and he tried it the traditional South American way: a military coup. His regime was about keeping his buddies rich, and staying in power. He did nothing to combat the rising crime or inflation that ravages Venezuela today.

Only one person (or three, actually, of one substance) can know his heart now. Certainly he desired power; I think he did also to some extent care about the poor, however, considering his own background among them. The extent to which this wore off over the course of his career can obviously be debated.

[Velasco]

But did he really care about the poor of his country? His policies may have helped them, but Chavez was a politician in the end. The man desired power, and he tried it the traditional South American way: a military coup. His regime was about keeping his buddies rich, and staying in power. He did nothing to combat the rising crime or inflation that ravages Venezuela today.

Yes, he cared about them. And even if he didn't care at all, he did more to help them than all the previous presidents in Venezuela. You don't need to be an expert in the History of that country, just a little generic knowledge to realize. Yes, the man tried a military coup in a very turbulent moment of the History of the country, when thousands of poor people invaded Caracas coming from the slums that surround the capital of Venezuela (the Cerros). However, nobody but right-wing hacks think that the man had the intention of becoming in a new Pinochet --sorry, it's not a good comparison, right-wing hacks tend to justify that Chilean dictator-- . Yes, there is corruption and criminality, just like in Honduras, Guatemala and other Latin American countries ruled by leaders more esteemed by the US right-wing. Yes, his friends in the international arena suck, the man had some eccentric taste for anti-gringo world leaders. However, there's no room for comparison between Chavez and Gaddafi or Ahmadineyad. No, I'm not a Chavez hack, but some double-standard value judgements make me laugh --or shout, it depends on the context .

[Lief 🗽]

Insane right-wing reaction to Chavez's death #571203 courtesy of the AP:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Sure, Chavez spent money on healthcare for poor people or whatever, but what he really should have done was spend on it monstrous skyscrapers built by immigrant slave-labor, like in those Persian Gulf paragons of democracy.

This is why left-wingers like myself are somewhat skeptical of right-wing critiques of Chavez's supposed corruption and disdain for democracy.

[Franknburger]

This is why left-wingers like myself are somewhat skeptical of right-wing critiques of Chavez's supposed corruption and disdain for democracy.

Have you ever lived or worked in a high-corruption environment? Where you can be stopped by the police just because they want some cash? Where you are harrassed by bureaucrats whenever you require some kind of document, be it a driving license, a birth certificate, renewal of your car registration, certification that your coffee-shop has adequate fire protection, whatever.? Where your final school exam score depends on how much your parents paid the the teacher? Where hospital doctors ask you for extra payment before they start to look at your sick child?
It is dehumilating - surely, not as dehumilating as being forced to beg for food - but still dehumilating.

And don't pretend that Venezuela is only supposedly high-corruption. Transparency International is anything but a right-wing propaganda organisation. Their rankings are pretty credible, and when they rank Venezuela equal to Haiti and the Chad, corruption there must be really bad. Ask yourself - how come the Venzuelan government's massive investment into the health sector has yielded such poor results ?  Maternal mortality has remained virtually unchanged at apalling high levels, while most other Latin American coutnries have made remarkable progress over the last years. You don't know the answer? Look above.

 

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Lief, will you be hitching a ride with Sean Penn, Danny Glover and Oliver Stone on their private jet to go ball their eyes out at Hugo's funeral? 

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Fidel Castro is going to live forever, isn't he?

It's scientifically proved Fidel Castro is immortal.

[Silent Hunter]

He helped millions of poor people in his country. He was also an autocrat. Those two can and do go together.

[angus]

He helped millions of poor people in his country. He was also an autocrat. Those two can and do go together.

Like peanut butter and jelly.  Or hummus and tabouli.  Or, better yet, Lo Mein and chicken. 

And who can forget his steamy bromance with Castro that culminated in Venezuela suppling oil to the energy-strapped Cubans while the Cubans supplied him with physicians and medical instructors to help Chavez staff his Missions.  

Moreover, Venezuelans were paying 9 cents per gallon for automotive fuel under Chavez.

He also did a mean impression of George W. Bush and was a decent song and dance man.

Surely we can overlook the fact that Chavez decimated the middle classes, toppled a 30-year tradition of transparency and democracy in a region where few countries even had those things, and sent many of his best educated people packing.

Still, he was beginning to become a little rancid.  It was time for the God of Man to throw him out of God's refrigerator.  Even He can't keep moldy items in the fridge very much past its expiration date, if for no other reason than to make room for some leftover chinese food.