Did that thread about a woman's atlas get deleted?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have never seen any difference in thoughts or behaviors between genders that had was demonstrated to be caused by biology, besides maybe a few minor hormonal impulses (but these can generally be easily overridden by rationality and self-control). While it is of course possible that some other things have a biological component, I think that assuming biological determinants in the absence of irrefutable evidence is an extremely dangerous attitude. Again, just look back at recent history to see what arguments of the sort have led to.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

For future reference, scare quotes are (going from Wikipedia here, but it's a good definition) 'quotation marks placed around a word or phrase to imply that it may not signify its apparent meaning or that it is not necessarily the way the quoting person would express its concept'.

I haven't much to add to what Antonio said, save that I'm in a pretty good ideological position to be blithe about my positions being called 'unscientific'.

[opebo]

Simfan said it in the the thread!  Let's just hear those 6 little words: I am sorry; I was wrong.  I have yet to ever see you acknowledge when you were wrong about an accusation against the mods.

I've never claimed to be infallible, Inks.  Given the power differential between us, any apology I would make would be mere cravenness, done out of fear, and so maybe not of any real value.  But I would appreciate it if we could drop the matter and move on.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Simfan said it in the the thread!  Let's just hear those 6 little words: I am sorry; I was wrong.  I have yet to ever see you acknowledge when you were wrong about an accusation against the mods.

I've never claimed to be infallible, Inks.  Given the power differential between us, any apology I would make would be mere cravenness, done out of fear, and so maybe not of any real value.  But I would appreciate it if we could drop the matter and move on.

I figured you wouldn't admit that you were wrong.  (Notice you said, "I've never claimed to be infallible," not "I was wrong", which doesn't actually acknowledge the fact that you made a bad assumption about the mods).  As for the apology - just humor me.  I'd love to see if you have it in you to say the words.

[Gustaf]

It's not about legal or physical barriers. Have you never known a woman intimately? And I don't necessarily mean sleeping with one. Just knowing a woman pretty well is sufficient to see this. I had a girlfriend who avoided working for investment banks. Not because she didn't want to, because she did. Not because they said they didn't like women, because they actually did the opposite, claiming to want more female employees. But because she very acutely felt the barriers of the sexist culture of those places and the way society expects men to do such jobs better. That's just a tiny anecdotal example from a country usually considered one of the most gender-equal in the world.

You're clearly viewing this from the perspective of a man. Which is natural since you are one. But the whole idea of tolerance and human rights is that we attempt to understand those coming from other positions in life. Not only do you fail in that but you seem uninterested to even try, content to retain misogynist positions. You should really reconsider that.  

For whatever reason, my closest friends tend to be women, so please spare me the "have you ever known a woman "spiel. The question that struck me immediately after reading your post was, why do you position women as some sort of extraordinarily fragile creatures unable to advance merely because they "feel the [perceived] barriers of a sexist culture?" Are they really that weak? I certainly don't think so. What you just said is far more insulting to women that any position I have stated. I'm not at all familiar with Swedish customs or business policy, but in the United States, companies are constantly going out of their way to find female employees, especially in traditionally male dominated fields like finance or engineering. It is, in fact, far easier to get a job in one of these fields as a woman than as a man. We all had a good laugh about "binders full of women" but companies really do this. Women have a serious edge in many fields just because we're all trying to overcompensate for something that nobody can ever define concretely. Which is a bit crazy to me, but companies are more than welcome to run their HR any legal way they see fit. Regarding the Atlas, and I think that was how this thread got started in the first place, nobody takes more crap here than fat people. I would much rather be a woman posting here than a fat. But we still have plenty of fats who are able to "overcome" the slings and arrows enough to post here. I'm even a little husky myself. And as I told Nathan, who remains in his sad little trench with his fingers in his ears, you should be far more reluctant to drop words like misogynist and sexist when they don't truly apply, if only because you may need these words in the future in more appropriate circumstances. When your racist/sexist/whateverist reflex is too strong, you completely destroy the meaning of these words.

So, you do have no idea what it is to be a woman. Got it.

You're, to be honest, being totally and utterly ridiculous. Belonging to the privileged group of society it's obviously easy for you to say that disadvantaged groups are just being weak and if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps all would be fine. I'm not saying women are weak. Do you think black people are poorer than whites in the US because they're weak? Do you think anyone calling for government intervention on the behalf of black people are suggesting that blacks are stupid or weak?

You're being a fairly disgusting, entitled idiot. I guess that's a violation of the TOS, but sometimes one has to state the truth anyway. Thinking that it's easier for women to have careers in banking...wow. You should know how it is in Sweden, since I explicitly stated that in my post. The women I've known who have reacted to these things have been far from weak or fragile. If you had to face the constant barrage of weird expectations and pressures that women face every day you might find yourself feeling less smug about how easy life is.

I can give you another example. A girl I know who is an engineer. Her male group supervisor told her that he thought her had been bad and yelled at her a bit about it (at a social gathering, not in the actual work place). Then he added something like "good thing I can't stay mad at you with those eyes and that ass" Women get demeaned that way all the time. It happens daily on here, for example.

It really saddens me that you're so devoid of empathy that you think women have it easy.

[Gustaf]

I'm still not sure how this website, or it's contents could be seen as off limits to women. Nathan claims it is the statistics part of it, but I don't quite associate statistics with our maps....also it needs to be said of the people who actually visit and use the maps, there could be a 3:1 ratio of men to women. Perhaps most of them just don't register for the forum.

You don't see how the way society is structured and the way gender roles and expectations work would preclude women from this stuff?

Not really, no. But you are free to explain why. Nathan said it is because this is another form of statistics, but I don't quite buy that.

Ok, so first of all, there is a role for men as eccentric geniuses which does not exist for women. Women are judged predominantly based on their appearance and on their ability to interact socially and fit into the mold. This means that way fewer women become what we call 'nerds'. I'll preempt the jokes about how this is a good thing for them by pointing out that it definitely is a highly explanatory factor behind the lower wages women tend to get. It also means that women are generally less likely to be found on specialized internet forums. A woman is much less likely to find social acceptance for an odd interest like electoral maps and is thus more likely to stay away from it.

This is a bit of a brief and shallow take on it, granted, but I would think it's sufficient for someone to get it unless they're completely oblivious to these things.

Ok, I get your point but I disagree with it. I don't think it's socially more acceptable for men to have such interests. I think you could make the case men don't care and still pursue those interests more than women?

But that is my point, in a weird way. It's ok for men to do socially unacceptable things. That in itself is sort of socially accepted. Have you seen A Beuatiful Mind for example? That tells us that it's sort of ok for a guy to be schizophrenic because he can still get a Nobel Prize. It's ok for a guy to be a geek in school, because he can still be Bill Gates.

Of course, it's not AWESOME to be a member of Atlas. Jocks have higher status. But it's still better than being out of the mainstream as a woman. A guy can be socially hard to approach and a bit eccentric and could still be considered an ok person. I knew a girl in my high school class who was a bit socially awkward and a bit geeky. Everyone were sort of murmuring about what was wrong with her. Because it's not socially acceptable behaviour for women.

For the record, I don't think anyone (and certainly not me) is arguing that there are no genetic differences between men and women. But that doesn't make the attitude Memphis is taking any less disgusting. 

[memphis]

It's not about legal or physical barriers. Have you never known a woman intimately? And I don't necessarily mean sleeping with one. Just knowing a woman pretty well is sufficient to see this. I had a girlfriend who avoided working for investment banks. Not because she didn't want to, because she did. Not because they said they didn't like women, because they actually did the opposite, claiming to want more female employees. But because she very acutely felt the barriers of the sexist culture of those places and the way society expects men to do such jobs better. That's just a tiny anecdotal example from a country usually considered one of the most gender-equal in the world.

You're clearly viewing this from the perspective of a man. Which is natural since you are one. But the whole idea of tolerance and human rights is that we attempt to understand those coming from other positions in life. Not only do you fail in that but you seem uninterested to even try, content to retain misogynist positions. You should really reconsider that.  

For whatever reason, my closest friends tend to be women, so please spare me the "have you ever known a woman "spiel. The question that struck me immediately after reading your post was, why do you position women as some sort of extraordinarily fragile creatures unable to advance merely because they "feel the [perceived] barriers of a sexist culture?" Are they really that weak? I certainly don't think so. What you just said is far more insulting to women that any position I have stated. I'm not at all familiar with Swedish customs or business policy, but in the United States, companies are constantly going out of their way to find female employees, especially in traditionally male dominated fields like finance or engineering. It is, in fact, far easier to get a job in one of these fields as a woman than as a man. We all had a good laugh about "binders full of women" but companies really do this. Women have a serious edge in many fields just because we're all trying to overcompensate for something that nobody can ever define concretely. Which is a bit crazy to me, but companies are more than welcome to run their HR any legal way they see fit. Regarding the Atlas, and I think that was how this thread got started in the first place, nobody takes more crap here than fat people. I would much rather be a woman posting here than a fat. But we still have plenty of fats who are able to "overcome" the slings and arrows enough to post here. I'm even a little husky myself. And as I told Nathan, who remains in his sad little trench with his fingers in his ears, you should be far more reluctant to drop words like misogynist and sexist when they don't truly apply, if only because you may need these words in the future in more appropriate circumstances. When your racist/sexist/whateverist reflex is too strong, you completely destroy the meaning of these words.

So, you do have no idea what it is to be a woman. Got it.

You're, to be honest, being totally and utterly ridiculous. Belonging to the privileged group of society it's obviously easy for you to say that disadvantaged groups are just being weak and if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps all would be fine. I'm not saying women are weak. Do you think black people are poorer than whites in the US because they're weak? Do you think anyone calling for government intervention on the behalf of black people are suggesting that blacks are stupid or weak?

You're being a fairly disgusting, entitled idiot. I guess that's a violation of the TOS, but sometimes one has to state the truth anyway. Thinking that it's easier for women to have careers in banking...wow. You should know how it is in Sweden, since I explicitly stated that in my post. The women I've known who have reacted to these things have been far from weak or fragile. If you had to face the constant barrage of weird expectations and pressures that women face every day you might find yourself feeling less smug about how easy life is.

I can give you another example. A girl I know who is an engineer. Her male group supervisor told her that he thought her had been bad and yelled at her a bit about it (at a social gathering, not in the actual work place). Then he added something like "good thing I can't stay mad at you with those eyes and that ass" Women get demeaned that way all the time. It happens daily on here, for example.

It really saddens me that you're so devoid of empathy that you think women have it easy.

Nobody has it easy in life. Take a look around. Life is a difficult and complicated muddle for everybody. Of course, it's true I have no idea what it's like to be a woman, but neither do you. And it's frankly absurd that you pretend to have more insight into it than I do. But calling my background privileged is rather ridiculous, which you would know, if you knew anything about me and the obstacles I've faced. As for comparing sex with race, it's a total non-starter until you can identify an entire chromosome dedicated to race. It's not the same situation at all. Unlike race, sex is actually a real biological thing. And I never said I knew the first thing about how businesses operate in Sweden. I actually made a special point to state the opposite. If your business culture is really that crass, that's unfortunate. I can assure you that, in most cases, that is not the situation in the United States, where businesses make a special point to be "inclusive" of all. I can assure you that organizations do not want sex/race trouble. They're busy enough, as is. In fact, there is no quicker way to end an important career than to make callous sexist (or racist) comments. It may just be a difference in what is acceptable between Sweden and in the United States. Oh an you are also  "totally and utterly ridiculous" as well as a "fairly disgusting, entitled idiot." Those sort of comments make your positions so very much stronger...

[ZuWo]

I'm far from being an expert in the "biology vs. society" debate when it comes to explaining various differences between men and women but I remember from my class on language and gender that there are good reasons to assume that biological factors have at least some sort of an impact. I guess if you really want to find out more about this you need to have a chat with a neurologist, for instance. Sociological research is certainly very helpful but it's clearly not everything.

[opebo]

As for the apology - just humor me.  I'd love to see if you have it in you to say the words.

No one could say it better than Father Jack.

[The Mikado]

Would anyone mind if I euthanized this terrible, terrible thread?

[Northeast Rep Snowball]

but then there is going to be a thread called Why did that thread about a that Thread about a women's atlas get deleted?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Would anyone mind if I euthanized this terrible, terrible thread?

Be my guest, but if I were a mod I'd lock it rather than deleting it. (I say that not just because of my own posts in it, but because it stands, in a sense, as a monument. To what is an exercise for the imagination, I suppose.)

[Northeast Rep Snowball]

I'm safely above 500, so its fine either way.

[Sbane]

Would anyone mind if I euthanized this terrible, terrible thread?

Yes, I would. I don't see what's so "terrible, terrible" about it. Is it terrible if we don't accept this dogma about every difference in men and women being caused by society?

[Lief 🗽]

Mikado's just on one of his power trips, Sbane. Any discussion that he doesn't like gets shut down on this forum. Of course everyone else pushing this "all differences are societal" nonsense keeps wanting to shut down this discussion too. Wonder why that is...

[Velasco]

Isn't it a nonsense arguing that "all differences are biological" as well? The biological determinism can be as boring as the fundamentalism concerning gender theories. I can hardly enjoy arguments between fundamentalists in general. Don't you realize that probably biological and societal factors interact in a way that is probably very complex and out of the scope of an internet forum? And all of this because someone asked why are so few women here. If I were one, I'd be laughing or I would go out running. I think this is a terrible thread with some good replies to Memphis' nonsense. I won't be sad if someone deletes or locks it.

[memphis]

Isn't it a nonsense arguing that "all differences are biological" as well? The biological determinism can be as boring as the fundamentalism concerning gender theories. I can hardly enjoy arguments between fundamentalists in general. Don't you realize that probably biological and societal factors interact in a way that is probably very complex and out of the scope of an internet forum? And all of this because someone asked why are so few women here. If I were one, I'd be laughing or I would go out running. I think this is a terrible thread with some good replies to Memphis' nonsense. I won't be sad if someone deletes or locks it.

There has to be some reason women don't post here. Do you think it's just too darn taboo or the climate here is just too darn oppressive for even a few brave female souls to post, even on the order of 10%? Or have 100% of women been raised in an environment that so strongly disinclines them? Keeping in mind that we have posters from much of the US, Europe, and Australia. That idea strikes me as "nonsense." Please specifically indicate what it is that I've said that you find to be such. I very much look forward to investigating this further.

[ZuWo]

Isn't it a nonsense arguing that "all differences are biological" as well?

Of course that's nonsense, but I don't think that this is what most people in this thread are trying to say. As you wrote a couple of sentences later, we probably have to assume that there is considerable interaction between biological and societal factors and that a combination of these two influences is responsible for the discernible differences between men and women. This is obviously the ultimate moderate hero position but it seems to me that this is a fairly reasonable approach.

[Simfan34]

Would anyone mind if I euthanized this terrible, terrible thread?

Be my guest, but if I were a mod I'd lock it rather than deleting it. (I say that not just because of my own posts in it, but because it stands, in a sense, as a monument. To what is an exercise for the imagination, I suppose.)

Please obliterate it from existence.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Would anyone mind if I euthanized this terrible, terrible thread?

If you do I'll get you your fill of your favorite beverage

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There has to be some reason women don't post here.

Well, we do actually have a couple of female posters these days. Perhaps you should consider asking them... oh.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

If Mikado won't delete this maybe sbane can come by and do it for him....or at least lock it.

[memphis]

Aside from a small bit of name calling, which I've been quite willing to overlook, what is it that people find so objectionable about this thread? Compared with the 23rd thread about who will Romney pick for veep, this thread is of exceptional quality. Does it really make people that uncomfortable to talk about men and women on an anonymous online forum?

[patrick1]

For future reference, scare quotes are (going from Wikipedia here, but it's a good definition) 'quotation marks placed around a word or phrase to imply that it may not signify its apparent meaning or that it is not necessarily the way the quoting person would express its concept'.

I haven't much to add to what Antonio said, save that I'm in a pretty good ideological position to be blithe about my positions being called 'unscientific'.

The response from Antonio is appreciated. Hormones have been shown to have a large impact on behavior.  After just recovering from an imbalance several months ago, I can attest to this first hand.  I don't think we are held hostage by our nature, but they are an influence. Obviously it varies between individuals and there are outliers but males and females have hormonal distribution differences.  I just don't see how saying something like that is controversial.  There are differences between men and women as well as between a 13year old girl and 65 year old woman.

At the end of the day it is plain that Atlas forum is a very poor microcosm. Additionally, with some of these seemingly nasty argument that ensue, it isn't even worth questioning why anymore.

Thanks for listening and enjoy your weekend.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Would anyone mind if I euthanized this terrible, terrible thread?

I would. This is a very important argument to have, and ignoring the, hum, "issues" of many posters out here does not make them disappear. I'm aware that most people here will never accept to question their idea of "nature" a bit, but hopefully a few will.