Did that thread about a woman's atlas get deleted?

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=166146.0

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=166146.0

What false claim did I make there?

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

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Either the claim is false, or the intended result of such an appeal is an order to accept the revisionism and shut up.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Either the claim is false, or the intended result of such an appeal is an order to accept the revisionism and shut up.

No... the intended result is to have a fair appeal.  And there have been successful appeals that I have granted.  So I'm not sure where you got that idea from...  And I don't recall you ever making an appeal to me via PM, so I really don't know what you're basing your claim on.

So, now YOU have made a false claim that hurt the image of the mods.  Will you admit that you were wrong and apologize?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

And to prove the truth of my claim, here are some PMs:

[redacted]
That being said, if you took it as racist, that's your opinion, so I'll remove the points, but in the future, try to refrain from throwing around "racist".

~~Inks

Alright.  I'll reduce it down to 2 points.

[redacted]
You know my rules.  Reposting is not allowed.  I'll remove the original point and 5 for the repost, but that's as far as I'll go.

Meh... screw it... I'll remove all the points.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

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Either the claim is false, or the intended result of such an appeal is an order to accept the revisionism and shut up.

No... the intended result is to have a fair appeal.  And there have been successful appeals that I have granted.  So I'm not sure where you got that idea from...  And I don't recall you ever making an appeal to me via PM, so I really don't know what you're basing your claim on.

On the rest of the thread, of course.

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I will admit that I was too general. "Such an appeal" should have been "an appeal against blatant power-mongering."

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Either the claim is false, or the intended result of such an appeal is an order to accept the revisionism and shut up.

No... the intended result is to have a fair appeal.  And there have been successful appeals that I have granted.  So I'm not sure where you got that idea from...  And I don't recall you ever making an appeal to me via PM, so I really don't know what you're basing your claim on.

On the rest of the thread, of course.

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I will admit that I was too general. "Such an appeal" should have been "an appeal against blatant power-mongering."

When was I power-mongering?

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Either the claim is false, or the intended result of such an appeal is an order to accept the revisionism and shut up.

No... the intended result is to have a fair appeal.  And there have been successful appeals that I have granted.  So I'm not sure where you got that idea from...  And I don't recall you ever making an appeal to me via PM, so I really don't know what you're basing your claim on.

On the rest of the thread, of course.

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I will admit that I was too general. "Such an appeal" should have been "an appeal against blatant power-mongering."

When was I power-mongering?

Reading comprehension, Mr Inks.

"An appeal against blatant power-mongering" was exactly the sort of appeal opebo was making.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Either the claim is false, or the intended result of such an appeal is an order to accept the revisionism and shut up.

No... the intended result is to have a fair appeal.  And there have been successful appeals that I have granted.  So I'm not sure where you got that idea from...  And I don't recall you ever making an appeal to me via PM, so I really don't know what you're basing your claim on.

On the rest of the thread, of course.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I will admit that I was too general. "Such an appeal" should have been "an appeal against blatant power-mongering."

When was I power-mongering?

Reading comprehension, Mr Inks.

"An appeal against blatant power-mongering" was exactly the sort of appeal opebo was making.

Well I didn't realize you were talking about opebo's appeal... you linked to page 1 of the thread, which was Simfan's appeal.

And opebo was not infracted out of power-mongering.  He was infracted for lying and misleading the forum, and trolling in doing so.

[Frodo]

Ok -now we can lock this thread...   

[opebo]

And if you truly have no power, and you believe that actions should be based on power, does that allow me to start infracting you at 10 points just because I have the "power"?

Yeah, I don't know of anything stopping you from doing that.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

And if you truly have no power, and you believe that actions should be based on power, does that allow me to start infracting you at 10 points just because I have the "power"?

Yeah, I don't know of anything stopping you from doing that.

So since you have no power, would you just let it happen?  Or would you protest such a move?

[opebo]

And if you truly have no power, and you believe that actions should be based on power, does that allow me to start infracting you at 10 points just because I have the "power"?

Yeah, I don't know of anything stopping you from doing that.

So since you have no power, would you just let it happen?  Or would you protest such a move?

Its a tight-rope.. last time that happened I just didn't post for about six weeks and it seemed to blow over.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

And if you truly have no power, and you believe that actions should be based on power, does that allow me to start infracting you at 10 points just because I have the "power"?

Yeah, I don't know of anything stopping you from doing that.

So since you have no power, would you just let it happen?  Or would you protest such a move?

Its a tight-rope.. last time that happened I just didn't post for about six weeks and it seemed to blow over.

I find it hard to believe that you would just accept what you think is an unjust punishment.  No, opebo... you are not beneath apologizing.  What you are is a hypocrite and arrogant.  You enjoy this little fan base you've accumulated by carrying on your shtick here, an you know that if you apologized, you'd begin to lose that following.  And it's a shame... you could be a good poster if you weren't wrapped up continuing your anti-mod fights even when you are objectively wrong.

[memphis]

And if you truly have no power, and you believe that actions should be based on power, does that allow me to start infracting you at 10 points just because I have the "power"?

Yeah, I don't know of anything stopping you from doing that.

So since you have no power, would you just let it happen?  Or would you protest such a move?

Its a tight-rope.. last time that happened I just didn't post for about six weeks and it seemed to blow over.

I find it hard to believe that you would just accept what you think is an unjust punishment.  No, opebo... you are not beneath apologizing.  What you are is a hypocrite and arrogant.  You enjoy this little fan base you've accumulated by carrying on your shtick here, an you know that if you apologized, you'd begin to lose that following.  And it's a shame... you could be a good poster if you weren't wrapped up continuing your anti-mod fights even when you are objectively wrong.

Personal attacks. Careful.

[Simfan34]

I would like to apologise. For provoking all of this. You may give me infraction points, and we can just issue a moratorium on the whole thing.

[opebo]

What you are is a hypocrite and arrogant. 

So what? 

No matter how much you attack me it won't change the way other posters feel about you or the system you personify.

It is also quite an unfair battle of wits, after all, is it not?  I mean - can I say what I think you are? 

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

And if you truly have no power, and you believe that actions should be based on power, does that allow me to start infracting you at 10 points just because I have the "power"?

Yeah, I don't know of anything stopping you from doing that.

So since you have no power, would you just let it happen?  Or would you protest such a move?

Its a tight-rope.. last time that happened I just didn't post for about six weeks and it seemed to blow over.

I find it hard to believe that you would just accept what you think is an unjust punishment.  No, opebo... you are not beneath apologizing.  What you are is a hypocrite and arrogant.  You enjoy this little fan base you've accumulated by carrying on your shtick here, and you know that if you apologized, you'd begin to lose that following.  And it's a shame... you could be a good poster if you weren't wrapped up continuing your anti-mod fights even when you are objectively wrong.

Why would anyone not like opebo for apologizing?  It'd probably make you less likely to moderate his posts!

[Gustaf]

It's not about legal or physical barriers. Have you never known a woman intimately? And I don't necessarily mean sleeping with one. Just knowing a woman pretty well is sufficient to see this. I had a girlfriend who avoided working for investment banks. Not because she didn't want to, because she did. Not because they said they didn't like women, because they actually did the opposite, claiming to want more female employees. But because she very acutely felt the barriers of the sexist culture of those places and the way society expects men to do such jobs better. That's just a tiny anecdotal example from a country usually considered one of the most gender-equal in the world.

You're clearly viewing this from the perspective of a man. Which is natural since you are one. But the whole idea of tolerance and human rights is that we attempt to understand those coming from other positions in life. Not only do you fail in that but you seem uninterested to even try, content to retain misogynist positions. You should really reconsider that.  

For whatever reason, my closest friends tend to be women, so please spare me the "have you ever known a woman "spiel. The question that struck me immediately after reading your post was, why do you position women as some sort of extraordinarily fragile creatures unable to advance merely because they "feel the [perceived] barriers of a sexist culture?" Are they really that weak? I certainly don't think so. What you just said is far more insulting to women that any position I have stated. I'm not at all familiar with Swedish customs or business policy, but in the United States, companies are constantly going out of their way to find female employees, especially in traditionally male dominated fields like finance or engineering. It is, in fact, far easier to get a job in one of these fields as a woman than as a man. We all had a good laugh about "binders full of women" but companies really do this. Women have a serious edge in many fields just because we're all trying to overcompensate for something that nobody can ever define concretely. Which is a bit crazy to me, but companies are more than welcome to run their HR any legal way they see fit. Regarding the Atlas, and I think that was how this thread got started in the first place, nobody takes more crap here than fat people. I would much rather be a woman posting here than a fat. But we still have plenty of fats who are able to "overcome" the slings and arrows enough to post here. I'm even a little husky myself. And as I told Nathan, who remains in his sad little trench with his fingers in his ears, you should be far more reluctant to drop words like misogynist and sexist when they don't truly apply, if only because you may need these words in the future in more appropriate circumstances. When your racist/sexist/whateverist reflex is too strong, you completely destroy the meaning of these words.

So, you do have no idea what it is to be a woman. Got it.

You're, to be honest, being totally and utterly ridiculous. Belonging to the privileged group of society it's obviously easy for you to say that disadvantaged groups are just being weak and if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps all would be fine. I'm not saying women are weak. Do you think black people are poorer than whites in the US because they're weak? Do you think anyone calling for government intervention on the behalf of black people are suggesting that blacks are stupid or weak?

You're being a fairly disgusting, entitled idiot. I guess that's a violation of the TOS, but sometimes one has to state the truth anyway. Thinking that it's easier for women to have careers in banking...wow. You should know how it is in Sweden, since I explicitly stated that in my post. The women I've known who have reacted to these things have been far from weak or fragile. If you had to face the constant barrage of weird expectations and pressures that women face every day you might find yourself feeling less smug about how easy life is.

I can give you another example. A girl I know who is an engineer. Her male group supervisor told her that he thought her had been bad and yelled at her a bit about it (at a social gathering, not in the actual work place). Then he added something like "good thing I can't stay mad at you with those eyes and that ass" Women get demeaned that way all the time. It happens daily on here, for example.

It really saddens me that you're so devoid of empathy that you think women have it easy.

Nobody has it easy in life. Take a look around. Life is a difficult and complicated muddle for everybody. Of course, it's true I have no idea what it's like to be a woman, but neither do you. And it's frankly absurd that you pretend to have more insight into it than I do. But calling my background privileged is rather ridiculous, which you would know, if you knew anything about me and the obstacles I've faced. As for comparing sex with race, it's a total non-starter until you can identify an entire chromosome dedicated to race. It's not the same situation at all. Unlike race, sex is actually a real biological thing. And I never said I knew the first thing about how businesses operate in Sweden. I actually made a special point to state the opposite. If your business culture is really that crass, that's unfortunate. I can assure you that, in most cases, that is not the situation in the United States, where businesses make a special point to be "inclusive" of all. I can assure you that organizations do not want sex/race trouble. They're busy enough, as is. In fact, there is no quicker way to end an important career than to make callous sexist (or racist) comments. It may just be a difference in what is acceptable between Sweden and in the United States. Oh an you are also  "totally and utterly ridiculous" as well as a "fairly disgusting, entitled idiot." Those sort of comments make your positions so very much stronger...

You're not being serious, are you? I just told you that Sweden has the same inclusive policies you talk about. Every Western country does. In fact, by pretty much every way of measuring Sweden is way more favourable to women than the US. Yet, even here the barriers are substantial. Maybe this is a reading comprehension issue rather than as I thought you being clueless about the world.

See, the statement that women have it easier than men to get a job in banking is exactly like saying that blacks have an easier time getting high-paying jobs due to affirmative action. Possibly worse.

I'm not saying you're universally privileged. I've no idea who you are. But as a man you belong to the privileged gender. As a white person you belong to the privileged race. This gives you certain advantages. Recognizing that other people lack this advantage is a key component of empathy. I'm not calling your attitude here disgusting as an ad hominem attack. I'm merely stating what it is to belong to a group that is privileged and complain about those that have it worse trying to get better lives.

You really might want to educate yourself a bit on this issue before offering opinions about it because you come off as totally clueless. It's a bit like if someone said Africans are privileged because they receive aid money. It'd be hard to take such a person seriously, even if they added that they didn't know much about how the economy is structured in Africa or whatever.

[Sbane]

Gustaf, what sort of sexual harassment laws do you guys have in Sweden? The comment "good thing I can't stay mad at you with those eyes and that ass" would lead to an instant lawsuit here in America. These things may be said in private between men, but never to a woman's face.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Gustaf, what sort of sexual harassment laws do you guys have in Sweden? The comment "good thing I can't stay mad at you with those eyes and that ass" would lead to an instant lawsuit here in America. These things may be said in private between men, but never to a woman's face.

I was gonna say.  A comment like that would land you in some deep sh**t, and rightfully so.  It's tantamount to saying "it's a good thing I don't have any rope, cuz that tree has your name on it right about now, boy" to a black guy.

And I'm sorry Gustaf, but just from the last few posts in your argument with Memphis, I don't think what Memphis is saying is nearly so bad as you're making it out.

Women are women.  As a group of people, they have strengths and weaknesses.  One of their strengths has been to put up with mens' bullsh**t for a very very long time and not go on an all out murder spree in response.  You now see women dominating college campuses, earning more degrees than men, doing better in school, and getting a lot of the good jobs.  They also have faster rising incomes than men (granted, they are lower than mens' as well).

Of course sexism still is a problem in all western nations.  In some areas, it is still entrenched.  In others, it is largely absent, and still in others, there is discrimination against men (nursing, teaching being the biggest examples).  I think most people recognize the unequal roles women were stuffed into in the past.  I think now the focus needs to shift to gender equality in general (both men and women), and eventually, with enough awareness, the issue becomes moot.

Right now we need to have a conversation about boys falling behind in school and not doing as well later in life.  Some people, like Hillary Clinton, who is hardly a chauvinist, recognize this and have brought this issue up.

But eventually it needs to be about "what do you want to do."  There will always be deficits of women in some fields as there will be deficits of men in others.  The point is to ensure that those imbalances are not intentional on an institutional level, but instead reflect the desires of men and women seeking to achieve their goals in life.  (Which is why I strongly oppose a 50/50 balance in parliament, for example.  But it is maybe necessary as an intermediate step.)

[Antonio the Sixth]

But eventually it needs to be about "what do you want to do."  There will always be deficits of women in some fields as there will be deficits of men in others.  The point is to ensure that those imbalances are not intentional on an institutional level, but instead reflect the desires of men and women seeking to achieve their goals in life.  (Which is why I strongly oppose a 50/50 balance in parliament, for example.  But it is maybe necessary as an intermediate step.)

I think my point, as well as that of Gustaf, Nathan and others, is to remind that barriers that prevent you from doing what you want to do are not always explicit or visible. They don't generally work in the form of "we don't want women here". It's a much more subtle process, that starts from the early childhood, and slowly encourages men and women to adopt different attitudes, develop different skills, follow different paths, etc. It's not enough to say "now women must not be excluded from certain professions". Because if the general assumptions of the employer and the coworkers are still influenced by gender stereotypes, a woman still has little chance to succeed in certain fields. And furthermore, women are even discouraged from seeking certain careers in the first place, at the level of primary or secondary education already.

It's also worth noting that this form of subtle discrimination exists for men as well, though it's limited to only a few categories like nursing, which do not convey much social consideration.

But the point is, eliminating obvious forms of discrimination is not enough. You have to go deeper and reshape mentalities outright.

[Gustaf]

Gustaf, what sort of sexual harassment laws do you guys have in Sweden? The comment "good thing I can't stay mad at you with those eyes and that ass" would lead to an instant lawsuit here in America. These things may be said in private between men, but never to a woman's face.

Of course you could sue over it. Do you think a woman with a reputation of having no sense of humour about an innocent joke like that would be hired again?

Sweden has extremely favourable sexual harassment laws for the victim.

[Gustaf]

But eventually it needs to be about "what do you want to do."  There will always be deficits of women in some fields as there will be deficits of men in others.  The point is to ensure that those imbalances are not intentional on an institutional level, but instead reflect the desires of men and women seeking to achieve their goals in life.  (Which is why I strongly oppose a 50/50 balance in parliament, for example.  But it is maybe necessary as an intermediate step.)

I think my point, as well as that of Gustaf, Nathan and others, is to remind that barriers that prevent you from doing what you want to do are not always explicit or visible. They don't generally work in the form of "we don't want women here". It's a much more subtle process, that starts from the early childhood, and slowly encourages men and women to adopt different attitudes, develop different skills, follow different paths, etc. It's not enough to say "now women must not be excluded from certain professions". Because if the general assumptions of the employer and the coworkers are still influenced by gender stereotypes, a woman still has little chance to succeed in certain fields. And furthermore, women are even discouraged from seeking certain careers in the first place, at the level of primary or secondary education already.

It's also worth noting that this form of subtle discrimination exists for men as well, though it's limited to only a few categories like nursing, which do not convey much social consideration.

But the point is, eliminating obvious forms of discrimination is not enough. You have to go deeper and reshape mentalities outright.

Pretty much this. Although I'll add that it's a lot worse to be discriminated against in, you know, every high-paying job like banking, law, politics and so on than in the ones with the lowest status and wages, like elderly care, nursing and teaching.

PS: in before Lief says that women have an advantage in the great career choice of porn stardom...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

What you are is a hypocrite and arrogant. 

So what? 

No matter how much you attack me it won't change the way other posters feel about you or the system you personify.

It is also quite an unfair battle of wits, after all, is it not?  I mean - can I say what I think you are? 

It's not an attack on you.  But as long as you admit that you're a hypocrite in not apologizing, that's close enough to an apology for me.  You've apologized in spirit, so, I accept your apology, and I forgive you.