Saul summoning Samuel- was it really him? Who did it?

[Wiggle Your Yummy Moist Preggers Cake Ben Shapiro]

I occasionally think about this whenever I hear about the state of the dead. When I was younger, I was taught that God did it and that it really was Samuel. Now I'm hearing the opposite-Satan did it, and it wasn't Samuel.

Anyway, In case you've never heard the story, Saul was in great trouble with war as per usuall, and he thought he needed Samuel's help. Samuel had been dead for a very long time. Saul decided to go find a summoner of the dead. She did her tricks, Samuel appeared, and I'm asking this to you.

Anyway, the spirit-that-may-or-may-not-be-Samuel told Saul that Saul and his sons where going to die in battle, and that Saul would kill himself. It came true.

So, what do you guys think? And no coming in and saying 'It didn't happen because the bible is false' or anything like that.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Don't know.  I've heard of this issue, and it is one I mean to look into as I go through my current careful reading of the Bible and taking notes for myself, but I haven't gotten there yet.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Option 1.  God has no business in witchcraft or consulting with psychics or mediums.  He would not do something that would contradict His Word.  Saul consulted the psychic and Samuel came forth through witchcraft.  Witchcraft is the same thing as Satanism.  However, God used even this Satanic event to His glory and paved the way for the young King David to take over the next day.  The Bible says that the very next day all of Saul's sons were hanged on a tree and that Saul fell on his sword and committed suicide.

[Blue3]

It clearly wasn't Satan or God who did it... it was the Witch of Endor, a necromancer.

(if a spirit really was raised at all)

[DC Al Fine]

Witch of Endor did it. I'd say it wasn't Samuel, it was some sort of demon.

[DemPGH]

Nooo, guys, the Jolly Green Giant did it! Come on, now. Witch of Endor.

Actually, in all seriousness, he looked up at the Sun, and voila, it blinded him for a time. That is, if you accept that the story actually happened.

[afleitch]

Unlikely to have ocurred. Cool story though.

[John Dibble]

Aside from it not likely occurring, whoever wrote it down did not likely think that the story would be interpreted through the lens of Christianity since that religion didn't exist at the time. It wouldn't likely be meant to be Satan as Christians conceive him since the Jewish concept of Satan is quite different from the Christian one.

[Zioneer]

What's the option for "The Witch did it, but God allowed it to prove a point"?

[The Mikado]

Whether it was Samuel or not, the message was the message Samuel would have given: that Saul would be punished for his faithlessness with the extinction of his line and that the kingdom would go to David. 

I'm a big fan of Handel's Saul.  Ghostly Samuel's speech is one of the best pieces of music in it. 

I've always preferred Handel's stylish rewriting of Biblical dialogue: Handel produces this: "Hast God forsaken thee?  And dost thou ask my counsel?  Did I not fortell thy fate when madly disobedient thou didst spare the curs'd Amalekite and on the spoil display rapacious.  Therefore on this day hath verified my words in thy destruction, hath rent the kingdom from thee and bestowed it on David, whom thou hatest for his virtue!  Thou and thy sons shall will be with thee, tomorrow.  And Yisrael by Philistine arms shall fall!  The LORD hath said it, he will make it good!"  That's so much more powerful than what the ghost says in I Samuel.

[Wiggle Your Yummy Moist Preggers Cake Ben Shapiro]

The which couldn't have summoned Samuel; she said it was beyond her own power.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

I remember a lady from my church saying that Satan did it or that the spirit was Satan; personally, I believe that God brought Samuel forth.  After all, God could have done it if he wanted to.  The medium couldn't do it by her own power.  

Nooo, guys, the Jolly Green Giant did it! Come on, now. Witch of Endor.

Actually, in all seriousness, he looked up at the Sun, and voila, it blinded him for a time. That is, if you accept that the story actually happened.

That was a different Saul.  That old song "Blinded by the Light" is running through my head (anybody see that one coming?).  

Whether it was Samuel or not, the message was the message Samuel would have given: that Saul would be punished for his faithlessness with the extinction of his line and that the kingdom would go to David.

This is probably the best answer.

And Obamanation, I feel the same way.  RIP John Lennon.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

Option 1 always seemed like the obvious reading to me, but that's not always the best course to take with the Bible. Since it's OT, I'd ask if the rabbis have anything to say on this subject, then look to the Church Tradition.

Having said that, Mikado's answer is the best so far.

The answers that dodge the question by asserting that the event didn't occur are coming from people who I sincerely hope wouldn't dream of, for example, engaging in literary criticism of The Lord of the Rings to the effect that since Gollum is a fictional character the question of his moral and volitional standing is irrelevant to an understanding of the text, or saying that since Middlemarch isn't a real town investigating it is useless to the task of investigating George Eliot. (Not that I'm saying these are comparable assertions to the conventionally religious mind, but I aver they should at least be so to the unconventionally religious or nonreligious one that takes enough interest in the Bible to post in a thread like this!)

Dibble, however, makes an excellent point about the understanding at the time the text was originally written, which is why I'd want to know what the rabbis have to say about this despite not being Jewish.

[The Mikado]

Dibble, however, makes an excellent point about the understanding at the time the text was originally written, which is why I'd want to know what the rabbis have to say about this despite not being Jewish.

Never a simple question.  After some Googling, it appears the relevant passage of the Talmud is this:

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This is...of questionable value, as usual with the Talmud, because it's a bunch of random comments from various rabbis across several centuries.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Bible/Prophets/Former_Prophets/Book_of_Samuel/Witch_of_Endor.shtml

This seems like a far more useful answer, and it argues that medieval and modern rabbis say that the witch was acting on her own and did not actually summon Samuel's ghost but rather tricked Saul, whereas classical Rabbis such as the aforementioned Talmudic scholars believed that the Witch of Endor truly did summon up Samuel.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

Oh, I'm well aware that the Talmudic authorities rarely have one singular answer for something, even in cases where some sort of conclusion was hammered out. Interesting that the division here is between classical and medieval/modern rabbis. Do you know if that's common?

[The Mikado]

Oh, I'm well aware that the Talmudic authorities rarely have one singular answer for something, even in cases where some sort of conclusion was hammered out. Interesting that the division here is between classical and medieval/modern rabbis. Do you know if that's common?

In this specific situation, it is.  Talmudic Rabbis were far more willing to accept the idea of other sources of supernatural power besides God, just thinking of them as illegitimate and evil.  Later sources were far more hostile to the idea that a "witch" could have any true power, even dark or occult power.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

I see. That makes a lot of sense, given what I know of Judaism's intellectual history and development.

[The Mikado]

I see. That makes a lot of sense, given what I know of Judaism's intellectual history and development.

Since the subject was brought up, a parallel question is Pharaoh's necromancers in Exodus, who were able to match God's early examples in the 10 Plagues, but fail miserably by the end.  The older interpretation was that Pharaoh's necromancers did in fact have actual magical powers, but they were low-level skills and that by the end Yahweh was simply outclassing them.  The more contemporary interpretation was that God was letting them do the early miracles to set them up for a fall later on.  This matches the shifting of the theme of the story from "the gods of the Nile are no match for the power of the God of Israel" to "the gods of the Nile don't exist, the God of Israel is omnipotent."

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Option 1.  God has no business in witchcraft or consulting with psychics or mediums.  He would not do something that would contradict His Word.  Saul consulted the psychic and Samuel came forth through witchcraft.  Witchcraft is the same thing as Satanism.  However, God used even this Satanic event to His glory and paved the way for the young King David to take over the next day.  The Bible says that the very next day all of Saul's sons were hanged on a tree and that Saul fell on his sword and committed suicide.

This