Doctor Who episodes, R. T. Davies period (2005-2010) survivor - Phase I Round 20

[Antonio the Sixth]

OK, let's go with Boom town.

I hope people don't forget about this. Where have all the first round voters gone ?

[Dereich]

WHAT? I loved Boom town! How about....The Idiot's Lantern. Series 2 had a bunch of stinkers.

[bore]

I enjoyed Boom town as well, so I'll go with the idiots lantern.

[Redalgo]

The Idiot's Lantern

[afleitch]

Boom Town was great.

Gridlock.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't have strong feelings about either episode, so I'll just go with Daleks In Manhattan again.

    I thought the Daleks had a certain charm as implacable killing machines. It's a nice break from the complexity of real life, if you will. That four Daleks were stuck hiding under Manhattan (a fact that was pointed out, even) was humiliating to them and made them seem less threatening in the long run. I thought it was a good story on its own terms, but I didn't like the effect it had on the greater saga.

     Ultimately, I concede that it may not be fair to blame any one story for the recent decline of the Daleks. Overall, they were just used too often. Any tack that would let them stay menacing in spite of such frequent appearances would probably be too pessimistic to work in Doctor Who.

I agree. As a villain they really have ceased to be villainous (and this goes back to the 80's). One Dalek is not particualrly frightening and neither is a million; it's hard to get a happy medium - 'Dalek' got it balanced well.

Moffat has been wise to 'retire' the Dalek's though the first episode of the new series will feature every Dalek there has ever been so who knows if it will be a bit of a re-invention.

Well, personally, having watched only the new series I must say I have never found the Daleks particularly terrifying (except in "Dalek", by the point you see how terrified the Doctor himself is). They have long been overshadowed by the Angels, the Vashta Nerada, the Midnight thing or the Silence in terms of creepiness. IMO, the Daleks are in the show as a metaphor of evil and inhumanity. They don't need to be terrifying, they might even look utterly pathetic (the "do not blaspheme" bit in Doomsday is perfect in that regard). The remnants of the Skaro Cult in Daleks in Manhattan is a way to point out why the Daleks fail : because their conviction that dalekness equals perfection prevents them from evolving like every species does. And when one of them finally tries to, he ends up being rejected by his former mates (which he is genuinely trying to help). I thinks this story tells a lot of truth about fanaticism and hatred of difference, and is magnificently tragic this way.

     The thing is, the Daleks are built up to be a genuine menace in canon. They fought on equal terms with the Time Lords (& were implied to have been winning the Time War) and a small number of Daleks can easily defeat a large force of humans and Cybermen. While they are quite goofy (seriously, they have a plunger for an arm) and seriously flawed in their world view, they are also meant to be seen as formidable fighters.

     In reality, most enemies that the Doctor faces are essentially bugs that he doesn't just squash outright due to his strong sense of morality. The way he dresses down the Vashta Nerada when they try to threaten him at the end of Forest of the Dead reinforces that fact. The difference with the Daleks is that they (& the Master too, for that matter) can actually challenge the Doctor on equal terms. That the Daleks are so privileged in the story canon and yet command so little awe from the viewing audience is a waste of character potential.

[patrick1]

Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks, worst accent ever!!!

[dead0man]

Voyage of the Damned

[Antonio the Sixth]

The Idiot's Lantern : 3
Boom Town : 2
Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks : 2
Gridlock : 1
Voyage of the Damned : 1

Eliminated :
Series 2 - Episode 7



Aired 27 May 2006

   

   

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Round 4 begins.

[afleitch]

It's been a bad run for Series 2 which I guess is to be expected. I'm going to vote out the Lazarus Experiment from Series 3 as I tend to skip it when watching the series again.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, I think the focus on series 2 has been a bit excessive.

Now, I'm going with The Unquiet Dead. Can someone tell me why it is still there ? It had nothing much interesting. The Lazarus experiment had, by the end, a really beautiful dialogue between Lazarus and the Doctor about life and death.

     The thing is, the Daleks are built up to be a genuine menace in canon. They fought on equal terms with the Time Lords (& were implied to have been winning the Time War) and a small number of Daleks can easily defeat a large force of humans and Cybermen. While they are quite goofy (seriously, they have a plunger for an arm) and seriously flawed in their world view, they are also meant to be seen as formidable fighters.

     In reality, most enemies that the Doctor faces are essentially bugs that he doesn't just squash outright due to his strong sense of morality. The way he dresses down the Vashta Nerada when they try to threaten him at the end of Forest of the Dead reinforces that fact. The difference with the Daleks is that they (& the Master too, for that matter) can actually challenge the Doctor on equal terms. That the Daleks are so privileged in the story canon and yet command so little awe from the viewing audience is a waste of character potential.

I don't think the dangerousness of the Daleks has been downplayed in the series overall. Sure, they have their own truly pathetic moments (and yeah, Daleks in Manhattan is particularly full of these moments), but this (at least in my view) doesn't make them any less impressive when they show all their force. The best example is the expression on the faces of Jack, Martha, Sarah Jane and the others when they hear the Daleks' "message to humanity" in The Stolen Earth. As soon as they hear it, they know there's nothing they can do. And we're talking about the doctor's bravest and most determined companions. Sure, one of the reason they freak out is because the Doctor is seemingly unreachable, but still. Others enemies could be handled without the Doctor by such a badass team, but not the Daleks. As for the Doctor himself, his tendency to act in a nonchalant and mocking way doesn't mean he does not fear them. It happens a couple times that his true feelings toward the Daleks are made evident : in Dalek, of course, but also in every other Dalek episode to some extent. And, remember, they came very close to winning several times (in The Parting of the Ways they were only stopped by a nigh-almighty Rose, and in Journey's End, they just made the mistake not to care about Donna - but how could they have known that she had become part-timelord ?). And in Evolution of the Daleks itself, the Doctor himself at some point was genuinely resigned to their victory, to the point when he was offering himself to them to be killed.

Of course, the problem with the Daleks is that they always come back, get their ass kicked, then come back again, etc. But after all, the same happens to the Master as well (even though his appearances have been made scarcer in the new series).

[Redalgo]

Yeah, I may as well go along with Antonio on this one. I'm picking The Unquiet Dead.

[Silent Hunter]

I'm going with Boom Town.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I liked The Lazarus Experiment. I'll vote The Unquiet Dead for now, so Lazarus will be safe to suck fluids another day.

     The thing is, the Daleks are built up to be a genuine menace in canon. They fought on equal terms with the Time Lords (& were implied to have been winning the Time War) and a small number of Daleks can easily defeat a large force of humans and Cybermen. While they are quite goofy (seriously, they have a plunger for an arm) and seriously flawed in their world view, they are also meant to be seen as formidable fighters.

     In reality, most enemies that the Doctor faces are essentially bugs that he doesn't just squash outright due to his strong sense of morality. The way he dresses down the Vashta Nerada when they try to threaten him at the end of Forest of the Dead reinforces that fact. The difference with the Daleks is that they (& the Master too, for that matter) can actually challenge the Doctor on equal terms. That the Daleks are so privileged in the story canon and yet command so little awe from the viewing audience is a waste of character potential.

I don't think the dangerousness of the Daleks has been downplayed in the series overall. Sure, they have their own truly pathetic moments (and yeah, Daleks in Manhattan is particularly full of these moments), but this (at least in my view) doesn't make them any less impressive when they show all their force. The best example is the expression on the faces of Jack, Martha, Sarah Jane and the others when they hear the Daleks' "message to humanity" in The Stolen Earth. As soon as they hear it, they know there's nothing they can do. And we're talking about the doctor's bravest and most determined companions. Sure, one of the reason they freak out is because the Doctor is seemingly unreachable, but still. Others enemies could be handled without the Doctor by such a badass team, but not the Daleks. As for the Doctor himself, his tendency to act in a nonchalant and mocking way doesn't mean he does not fear them. It happens a couple times that his true feelings toward the Daleks are made evident : in Dalek, of course, but also in every other Dalek episode to some extent. And, remember, they came very close to winning several times (in The Parting of the Ways they were only stopped by a nigh-almighty Rose, and in Journey's End, they just made the mistake not to care about Donna - but how could they have known that she had become part-timelord ?). And in Evolution of the Daleks itself, the Doctor himself at some point was genuinely resigned to their victory, to the point when he was offering himself to them to be killed.

Of course, the problem with the Daleks is that they always come back, get their ass kicked, then come back again, etc. But after all, the same happens to the Master as well (even though his appearances have been made scarcer in the new series).

     Which gets to my point. The Daleks are generally built up to be a grave threat. However, their constant appearances and rapid exterminations at the hands of the Doctor makes it hard for the audience to take them seriously and wastes the work of building them up. Between the pointlessness of the millions of Daleks that appeared at the end of Doomsday and the sheer ineffectualness of the Cult of Skaro in Daleks in Manhattan (who really would have had no difficulty just conquering the world), the middle of Davies's run was a real low point for the threat of the Daleks.

[Antonio the Sixth]

     The thing is, the Daleks are built up to be a genuine menace in canon. They fought on equal terms with the Time Lords (& were implied to have been winning the Time War) and a small number of Daleks can easily defeat a large force of humans and Cybermen. While they are quite goofy (seriously, they have a plunger for an arm) and seriously flawed in their world view, they are also meant to be seen as formidable fighters.

     In reality, most enemies that the Doctor faces are essentially bugs that he doesn't just squash outright due to his strong sense of morality. The way he dresses down the Vashta Nerada when they try to threaten him at the end of Forest of the Dead reinforces that fact. The difference with the Daleks is that they (& the Master too, for that matter) can actually challenge the Doctor on equal terms. That the Daleks are so privileged in the story canon and yet command so little awe from the viewing audience is a waste of character potential.

I don't think the dangerousness of the Daleks has been downplayed in the series overall. Sure, they have their own truly pathetic moments (and yeah, Daleks in Manhattan is particularly full of these moments), but this (at least in my view) doesn't make them any less impressive when they show all their force. The best example is the expression on the faces of Jack, Martha, Sarah Jane and the others when they hear the Daleks' "message to humanity" in The Stolen Earth. As soon as they hear it, they know there's nothing they can do. And we're talking about the doctor's bravest and most determined companions. Sure, one of the reason they freak out is because the Doctor is seemingly unreachable, but still. Others enemies could be handled without the Doctor by such a badass team, but not the Daleks. As for the Doctor himself, his tendency to act in a nonchalant and mocking way doesn't mean he does not fear them. It happens a couple times that his true feelings toward the Daleks are made evident : in Dalek, of course, but also in every other Dalek episode to some extent. And, remember, they came very close to winning several times (in The Parting of the Ways they were only stopped by a nigh-almighty Rose, and in Journey's End, they just made the mistake not to care about Donna - but how could they have known that she had become part-timelord ?). And in Evolution of the Daleks itself, the Doctor himself at some point was genuinely resigned to their victory, to the point when he was offering himself to them to be killed.

Of course, the problem with the Daleks is that they always come back, get their ass kicked, then come back again, etc. But after all, the same happens to the Master as well (even though his appearances have been made scarcer in the new series).

     Which gets to my point. The Daleks are generally built up to be a grave threat. However, their constant appearances and rapid exterminations at the hands of the Doctor makes it hard for the audience to take them seriously and wastes the work of building them up. Between the pointlessness of the millions of Daleks that appeared at the end of Doomsday and the sheer ineffectualness of the Cult of Skaro in Daleks in Manhattan (who really would have had no difficulty just conquering the world), the middle of Davies's run was a real low point for the threat of the Daleks.

Yeah, I admit that's a huge plot hole in that episode. The Daleks, if as powerful as usual, certainly didn't need to hide. This probably can be justified in some way, like the "emergency time-travel" device consuming an insane amount of energy and leaving them near powerless, but you're right that this has been a low point in the Dalek's image. Still, I don't think that's near enough to dislike Daleks in Manhattan, because it's still an amazing story.

[Silent Hunter]

Daleks are hugely potent in the early Nation stories - especially the (mostly lost, but still on audio) "The Dalek's Master Plan".

[patrick1]

Daleks In Manhattan.

[bore]

The Unquiet dead

[Dereich]

I'd agree that both the Lazarus Experiment, Daleks in Manhattan, and the Unquiet Dead are bad episodes, but I just re-watched series 1 and remember how much I dislike it, so:

The Unquiet Dead.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Yeah, I admit that's a huge plot hole in that episode. The Daleks, if as powerful as usual, certainly didn't need to hide. This probably can be justified in some way, like the "emergency time-travel" device consuming an insane amount of energy and leaving them near powerless, but you're right that this has been a low point in the Dalek's image. Still, I don't think that's near enough to dislike Daleks in Manhattan, because it's still an amazing story.

     I think it's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. I love the Daleks as villains, but the sheer number of Dalek stories and the specific flaws I mentioned about those episodes really sort of hampered my enjoyment of Dalek stories in general. Actually, I could talk about similar flaws in Journey's End as well. I notice that that one already got a vote in an earlier round.

[Platypus]

The Lazarus Experiment is memorable, but a bit rubbish. The Unquiet Dead was a bit meh and I had to look it up to remember which one it was. I like Gridlock, neutral on Boom Town.


So, I'll vote for The Unquiet Dead, but happy enough to vote out Lazarus soon.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The Unquiet Dead : 6
The Lazarus Experiment : 1
Boom Town : 1
Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks : 1

Eliminated :
Series 1 - Episode 3



Aired 9 April 2005

   

   

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Round 5 begins.

[Platypus]

The Doctor and the wardrobe or whatever isn't in the competition, so I vote Turn Left instead.

[Silent Hunter]

I again vote Boom Town.

[patrick1]

Daleks in Manhattan