The Official Star Trek Thread

[DemPGH]

Yeah... when did Star Trek become a generic sci-fi action thing?

With Voyager and DS9.

I saw the OP and thought, "Aw no, not another Star Trek movie." But. Marketing and economics drive the American big budget film industry.

Lots of folks actually do still make movies, though, but they're not marketed very well. You actually go make movies with a good script and good dialogue and a real story, and if they look good you graduate up to these kinds of things.

[DemPGH]

I thought the 2009 movie was just okay (what I saw of it). Will almost surely skip Into Darkness.

After The Next generation I more or less tapped out of it. And I actually remember when that show legitimately challenged Monday Night Football in the classic days of Michaels, Gifford, and Dierdorf on ABC. I think between DS9 and Voyager I've seen six episodes. Just doesn't do it for me. Gene died in '91, I think, and the people running The Next Generation more or less finished it with his vision, but the other spin-offs were clearly meant to take it in the direction of general sci-fi action, because I think it dawned on them how much money the Star Wars franchise had mad with only three movies.

That said, I always liked the 1960s Trek. The sets, the characters, Kirk talking his way or reasoning his way out of every situation, it's really retro now. Special effects would be like a sparkler or something. It's missed!

[DemPGH]

I've read really glowing reviews of DS9 (multi-dimensional, more philosophical), and I've read really awful reviews (Vietnam in space with too much emoting, then several characters go off on a spirit quest or something - meh). What little I've seen of it, I can say that the acting is really good, but it's just not my thing. I liked the space amoebas and Kirk fighting a walking alligator on the planet with raw chemicals strewn about before Kirk figures out how to make a cannon. That was cool.

[DemPGH]

Ahh, I'm envious - you're discovering this great show for the first time. I wasn't able to get into anything Trek related post Next Generation. It was so well written and acted. There have been rumors about a reboot centered around either Riker or Worf, but they've all been shot down.

By all objective measures the show improved a lot and settled down in Season 3 and steadily got better, IMO. Characters start to develop relationships of various kinds (Data's cat, lol) and carve out their own niches doing this or that.

Worf sitting in the mud bath in "Cost of Living" from Season 5 was hilarious. "So you're just supposed to sit here??" he barks. LOL.

I think you'll enjoy Season 3 and beyond a lot. Wait till "The Best of Both Worlds."

Season 7 takes a creepy turn, so you might like some shows there.

[DemPGH]

Yep, it gets better as it goes on.  Even Wesley becomes enjoyable a couple of times.

Yes. The one where he gets in trouble for a stunt he pulled with his buddies at the Academy was very good!

[DemPGH]

I don't dislike Deep Space Nine, but I couldn't get into it. It's too static for me and the Dominion arc and the intrigue is a little too much of one thing.

With Next Gen, it also dawned on me that in addition to what dead0man said about Wesley, Lwaxana's material also got much, much better in the later seasons. She was only in a handful of shows, but her material during the early seasons is silly out of control libido or matchmaker antics. Her later material is very serious and at times heavy - "Dark Page" from Season 7 is a good example. It's a fine example as to what that character could have been.

What about the Next Gen Movies?

VII. Generations
VIII. First Contact
IX. Insurrection
X. Nemesis

I actually like Insurrection - it's probably the most Next Generation-y of the movies, it's got a great villain (although I tend to lean toward less make-up and prosthetics), Data is more normal, and I love the closing shot. Nemesis is the stinker, IMO - it's a bad B movie with a mega budget. God awful premise, bad villain, and someone watched a certain 1920s vampire movie in coming up with the stupid underlings. That movie was so bad it killed the freaking series.

Speaking of this, does anyone know where I could find TNG to stream? The ideal for me would be English with English subtitles, but English with French or Italian subtitles would work as well.

Anyone?

I have no idea. The region 1 DVDs do not have Italian, I know that.

[DemPGH]

This is just beautiful, Stewart at the top of his game, which happened rather often! But this is perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6NPq_kPSUM

And here's an extended version where Picard convinces one of the characters that he is not a god.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2tQ7V2oCTs

[DemPGH]

One of my favorite 4th season shows is "Remember Me." It proved that McFadden could indeed act, because if anyone had been unfairly criticized, she had been (Maurice Hurley drummed her out at the close of the 1st season, and when Hurley left or was pushed out himself the first thing they did was bring her back). She did nearly 40% of the script alone and did all her own stunts in "Remember Me."

I also really liked "Brothers," "Clues," and "The Drumhead," but in general the 4th season was superb. "Devil's Due" could have been more. I hope I'm not spoiling it, but she (Ardra) ended up just out to make a buck and have some fun. It was a cute show, but she could have been darker and more malevolent.

[DemPGH]

That's Frakes? Wow. Showing his age, he is! Might be the glasses too.

With regard to the 5th Season, "Darmok" is widely considered to be objectively one of the best shows of the series. It's beloved by pretty much everybody. The episode contains a very egregious effects blooper, though - see if you catch it! Sadly, that's the only appearance of the Children of Tama. I also like "Cost of Living" very much, "The Perfect Mate," "Cause and Affect," and a few others.

[DemPGH]

Antonio: Glad you found Next Gen! Haha, "Code of Honor" is objectively horrible, as is "Angel One." While Gene was noted for "progressivism," both of those are pretty regressive, I'd say, and just objectively atrocious social commentary. Unintentionally funny and amusing is the best that can be said about them. "Heart of Glory" was great, though.

Lefty: You're already to "Chain of Command," great. That and "The Outcast" are about as heavy as TNG gets. Lore will return one last time for his coda soon. Won't spoil anything, though, but it's pretty fun with a lot of action. Season 7 has a lot of weird episodes ("Sub Rosa" being tops), but your point about the writing improving shows in "Dark Page." Troi's mother is finally treated seriously!

[DemPGH]

The issues with "The Outcast" were really twofold, IMO.

Unfortunately, Next Gen very blatantly chose to avoid sex and relationships completely. If anyone is sexually attracted to someone else it's because they've caught a virus or something or else suddenly and jarringly decide to abandon their feelings because those feelings might interfere professionally or something. That's one. Then you get "The Outcast," which is about a society or race of people that forces its citizens by policy to be androgynous, more or less - certainly to not identity with a gender. I think that premise, while interesting, invites a misreading because it's so strange. I'm not sure a lot of people would connect that to a gay person, or anyone, feeling like an outcast, because it's so positively bizarre. It would have been much more effective had it been a story about a female or male scientist living in a socially conservative culture and who might buck norms or whatnot, and there's a hint about sexuality. That would have made the point a LOT better, I think.

Your last point isn't entirely accurate. I thought Lwaxana Troi was a very sympathetic character in Half a Life.

Forgot about that one! That's the end of the 4th season - material for her had matured by then, yeah. That was depressing and I think featured a pre-Ro Michelle Forbes. I read that they were so impressed with Forbes that they decided to bring her back, which was a rarity. 

[DemPGH]

Maybe the best TNG episode is "Inheritance" from season 7. Loved that, Data became my favorite character by far with that.

Also, IMO, Insurrection is much better than Nemesis. Fans often criticize the former for not telling a Dominion War storyline, but honestly I think that speaks to Paramount's lack of confidence in DS9, plus they wanted to reach a larger audience, and in that sense Insurrection is effective. It's a trouble-in-Eden story. And Picard takes one of his strong moral stands, so it is actually very TNG-ish. I kind of like it.

In the end, I think the Original Series plus TNG did for me about all Trek could do (I guess I like Gene's vision a lot). Voyager to me just tried so hard to be cool, but was too repetitive and the quality writing just wasn't there. DS9 was too dark and then got into mysticism as I recall, kind of its own sci-fi series, really.

[DemPGH]

Maybe the best TNG episode is "Inheritance" from season 7. Loved that, Data became my favorite character by far with that.

Also, IMO, Insurrection is much better than Nemesis. Fans often criticize the former for not telling a Dominion War storyline, but honestly I think that speaks to Paramount's lack of confidence in DS9, plus they wanted to reach a larger audience, and in that sense Insurrection is effective. It's a trouble-in-Eden story. And Picard takes one of his strong moral stands, so it is actually very TNG-ish. I kind of like it.

In the end, I think the Original Series plus TNG did for me about all Trek could do (I guess I like Gene's vision a lot). Voyager to me just tried so hard to be cool, but was too repetitive and the quality writing just wasn't there. DS9 was too dark and then got into mysticism as I recall, kind of its own sci-fi series, really.

Just read this post.  A+.

I am rewatching TNG.  Right now I am at Season 4 (I think I'm about  midway through), but I'll make a note to watch out for that episode when I come across it.  The one thing I remember about TNG is that it was one of those rare series that actually gets better in the later seasons.  Granted, that might just be because of the turmoil of the first two seasons (where do we begin?) that sort of made Season 3 sort  of a "make it or break it" season for many.  Some lament the axing out of Tasha Yar as a regular series character, but Worf really is a much stronger character  to fill in the role of a Chief of Security and I felt that there really wasn't much future potential for Yar anyways.  Doctor Pulaski wasn't absolutely terrible, but I did not feel any sort of interest in her story.  Really, I think it revealed that the problem in Season One with Dr. Crusher was that she was written way too simplistically (they way overdid the sexual tension between her and the Captain).  It seems like once they gave Gates McFadden  something to work with she was able to turn Dr. Crusher into one of the moral pillars of the crew (if that is an appropriate phrase to use here) as opposed to just a random late thirties/early forties female doctor who was thrown into the show just to serve as the captain's love interest.

And yeah my favorite character is also Data.  I kind of like the whole "anti-Spock" nature of the Android who knows everything except how to be human.  Really, in a way Data's attempts to emulate/understand human behavior/emotions/what have you are actually him furthering a quest for understanding.  Yes, the Android does know many things, but the more I watch the series it seems that he starts out not truly understanding a great many things.  Arguably the show shows that there is a dimension to feelings that can't be ascertained by mere knowledge and fact.

And in regards to Insurrection, I myself found it pretty decent (given that it was a Star Trek film, back then one typically didn't go to one of those expecting a life changing Academy Award worthy performance).  I don't get some of the more extreme hate it gets.  Hell, Patrick Stewart's performance in Insurrection alone makes it miles better than Nemesis, that WTFfest that was The Final Frontier, the snoozefest that was the first movie, and the Special Effects Driven Porn (SEDP) of the latest two.  It is at least as good as Generations (your mileage may vary on this, I actually kind of liked it for some reason (except for the ultra dark lighting in Picard's Ready Room, seriously WTF), imo.  And maybe I'm a little bit biased here (I am not the hugest fan of Deep Space Nine, precisely for the reasons you articulated), but I think the last thing a Star Trek movie needed in 1998 was an hour and fifty minutes rehash of YET ANOTHER DOMINION STORYLINE.  I mean, DS9 is not a horrible show; but it's themes always seemed a little too dark for a regular Star Trek series (again, I am also a huge fan of the original vision).  It was good from a "serial" perspective (a long lasting story arc extending through SEASONS OF EPISODES), but from a "I just want to see a ship fly through space combined with a strongly delivered moral message at the end of the episode" perspective I'm not a fan.

Haha, thanks! It's cool that there's some Trek fandom here, and yep, I agree with your observations!

I like Generations - not great but good, and good grief, I noticed how dark much of the lighting was as well! It was really jarring. Maybe to make it look like a movie because season 7 ended, they shot the movie, and it was out in the Fall that year.

What I think worked so well with TNG is, look who was coming in the door everyday: Stewart, Spiner, Dorn (who also was great), and they all had ideas for things, especially when the cast started directing shows. I still have a hardcopy of the Companion, which in a couple spots speaks to that. The cast of TNG was simply awesome.

Early on, Tasha was kind of extraneous, yeah. LaForge settled into his spot, Worf settled into his spot (there was a lot of overlap here early), and it just left Tasha kind of out.

The highlighted sentence is right on, I think. DS9 was cool, but it definitely was its thing with its audience.

The prequels have left a lot to be desired for me as well. I guess both Frakes and Dorn have pitched ideas for a TNG era reboot, one that would focus on Worf, another on Captain Riker, but it doesn't sound like either has much chance. It would depend on who would be running it, IMO.

Gene's views on a host of issues mesh with mine, and I think when it got away from that it was watchable but didn't do anything for me.

[DemPGH]

Well, I just finished season 2, so it seems like the -real- stuff is about to begin.

Besides a few good episodes like "Q who", the season's ending was pretty dull. The last episode in particular was an utter mockery. It's easy to see they had to rush in to complete it.

But anyway, now I'm looking to be impressed.

Was that the one with the evil bugs that latched onto people and mind-controlled them (or was that the season 1 finale?) and had a plan to take over the Federation? I always found it funny how they never followed up on that plotline.

No, it was the one where 90% of the episode consists of replaying scenes of previous episodes where Riker gets in trouble.

Shades of Gray (there's a MacGyver episode like that, btw). If they're going to do flashbacks, I think it should at least be new stuff. It was weak. But Maurice Hurley wrote that one basically as he was packing up his office to leave, lol. There was a big turnover after season 2, Gene backed off a bit, and new people came in with a fresh perspective to go alongside the old. I think that helped the show a lot.

I also liked the one about the bugs.

[DemPGH]

The show definitely grows up in the 3rd season and becomes more focused, realistic, etc. "The Enemy" was maybe the first show to illustrate that, yep, there are still problems. I love "Who Watches the Watchers?" and Picard's speech to the woman about superstition and progress was WOW.

I just watched recently "A Matter of Perspective." Very strong, well written, clever episode. "Allegiance" was also very good, I recall.

Yeah, the Ferengi were transitioned over to comedy relief/intergalactic bunglers. DS9 took it to an extreme, but that's DS9. The whole thing was just a big extreme.

"Sins of the Father" is a downer, yeah, but that's only the start of a very good and very interesting arc. On that issue (don't mean to spoil), there be better days ahead for Worf definitely!

[DemPGH]

IMO, the visual effects in The Original Series are so bad by now as to kind of detract. A few years ago there were special editions that seriously upgraded exterior scenes and effects sequences, and I understand they are pretty good. The set designs are wonderfully cheesy and the stories are actually pretty good. I'd recommend a few very good episodes to get a taste of it - "The Immunity Syndrome," "The Galileo Seven," "The Doomsday Machine," "Shore Leave," and a few others. Of course if anyone liked Wrath of Khan, you need to see "Space Seed," which was very well done. TOS is widely regarded as being at its best during its 2nd season, although there are some 1st season gems.

Voyager and DS9 for very different reasons I just can't get into.

[DemPGH]

The Original Series, The Next Generation, and the movies through Insurrection I love. They are largely character centered mystery stories set in a futuristic, technologically advanced human society which has solved the basic problems we struggle with now. I like the logical, mystery aspect of the shows that I mentioned. I also like that Roddenberry went against the melodramatic dystopian vision that so much of sci-fi embraced. Interestingly, Roddenberry's interest prior to Star Trek being accepted was police procedurals and investigative themed fiction. He basically just did it in a sci-fi setting with Trek, and made his points about human evolution and so on. It's great.

Deep Space Nine and Voyager are just sci-fi/action that was popular in the '90s, totally forgettable.

[DemPGH]

Excuse me, I'd just like to ask a question. What does God need with a starship?

(Star Trek V was hit with a couple of budget slashes, was written around a writer's strike, and suffered because ILM was not available for the effects, btw)

But still, Star Trek V. Good times. George Murdock (RIP 2012), who played "God," also turned up on The Next Generation in a fairly memorable role.

I don't know what SW Episode I was even about, to tell you the truth.

[DemPGH]

Zero interest. Have not watched any of the "reboot" films about Kirk other than bits and pieces. Not inspired to watch more, don't care.

I've read that both Michael Dorn and Jonathan Frakes have approached pretty much everyone about a Trek series that would pick up the post TNG, DS9, VOY timeline, and they've been turned down. Don't know for sure, but THAT I would positively be interested in. Especially if Dorn and/or Frakes would have anything to do with it.

I think if I get in the mood for a Trek fix I need to give DS9 and Voyager a closer look. I'm familiar enough with both to know what they're about, but a closer look might be warranted.