The Official Star Trek Thread

[dead0man]

Me and the wife are most of the way through watching everything Start Trek, so we'll add this to the list.  We just finished Lower Decks and it is, by FAR, the best Star Trek ever.  Not close.  We haven't seen Picard, the other new cartoon one that is aimed at children or Enterprise. 

We had just finished Voyager before Lower Decks.  What an ordeal that was.  I was done with anything Star Trek at that point, but we knew Lower Decks was going to be short (2 seasons of 13 half hour episodes) and had a cool cast and was supposed to be funny.  We're supposed to do Star Wars after all of Trek is done, but the plan, as of now, is to watch Picard and then move onto Wars without watching season 3 of Discovery or the one for kids, but maybe we'll add Continues to the list.



**if anyone wants to give an opinion on what Star Wars properties to watch and in what order, I'm in a listening mode.  Right now, were leaning towards just the movies and watching them in "in universe" chronological order...ie, Start with the prequels, Solo, Rogue1, the original 3, the last 3.

[politicallefty]

I haven't heard of it. I really enjoyed Picard, but I haven't watched more than the first few episodes of Discovery. I'm debating whether or not I should push through it and see if it gets better. All of Trek does have its rough edges throughout its first seasons.

Me and the wife are most of the way through watching everything Start Trek, so we'll add this to the list.  We just finished Lower Decks and it is, by FAR, the best Star Trek ever.  Not close.  We haven't seen Picard, the other new cartoon one that is aimed at children or Enterprise. 

We had just finished Voyager before Lower Decks.  What an ordeal that was.  I was done with anything Star Trek at that point, but we knew Lower Decks was going to be short (2 seasons of 13 half hour episodes) and had a cool cast and was supposed to be funny.  We're supposed to do Star Wars after all of Trek is done, but the plan, as of now, is to watch Picard and then move onto Wars without watching season 3 of Discovery or the one for kids, but maybe we'll add Continues to the list.

I haven't seen Lower Decks, so I have no opinion there. I've seen TAS for that matter either. I've never really understood the hate for Voyager. I will agree with most that it did not live up to its potential, but if you view it more like TNG, I think it's easier to appreciate. To be honest, I really liked Captain Janeway too.

From everything I read, I had such low expectations going into Enterprise that I enjoyed it far more than I expected. What really annoyed me though is that the series was getting so good in the fourth season and that network pulled the plug, so no season 5. They fixed what wasn't working before, but it was unfortunately too late. Enterprise is pre-Federation, so it's quite different, but you start to see how the Federation comes to be in the fourth season. I also liked a lot of the Earth-Vulcan drama throughout the show, something that reaches a major inflection point in the fourth season. I'd also say that the pilot episode is one of the stronger pilots of any of the shows.

**if anyone wants to give an opinion on what Star Wars properties to watch and in what order, I'm in a listening mode.  Right now, were leaning towards just the movies and watching them in "in universe" chronological order...ie, Start with the prequels, Solo, Rogue1, the original 3, the last 3.

I've thought a lot about that before, but I agree with the "in-universe" chronological order. That's what I do when I want to watch all of the movies. There are also quite a few unconventional approaches you can read about. It is a little jarring though when you go from the technological advancements made in movies over the past 20 years or so and go back to 1977. On the other hand, it's a good portrayal in seeing the vibrant Republic turn into the authoritarian Empire.

Now, you also have to consider the shows too, not just the movies. But I wouldn't advise squeezing them between the movies unless you're really committed. I strongly recommend watching The Clone Wars (both the movie, which is pretty meh, and the series that ended not long ago, which is amazing). It's computer animated, but I definitely wouldn't call it a kiddie show or anything like that. I think one of the best aspects is that it really gives depth to the prequel era as you see everything slowly fall into place for the Empire to replace the Republic. After that, I'd recommend The Bad Batch, which is basically a spinoff of The Clone Wars, but so far during the very early days of the Empire. I'd also recommend Rebels as well.

Can I assume you've seen The Mandalorian?

[dead0man]

the wife says she won't watch the SW TV shows.  I can maybe convince her to watch an episode to see if we'll like it.  We watched season 1 of the Mandalorian.  It wasn't as good to us as it seemed to be for everyone else.

Voyager is worse than DS9 which is worse than TNG and everything is better than TOS.  Janeway wasn't the issue (though she is clearly not in the same league as Picard or Sisko), Chakotay is good too, 7of9 was excellent eye candy.  Tuvok was my favorite crew member, but they rarely gave that guy any screen time.  Kim sucked, Torres sucked, I like Robert Picardo, the Doctor was an interesting character that they used WAY too much.  It seemed like 85% of eps were focused on the Doctor or 7of9 (or both).  I understand the desire to focus on their best features, but maybe toss Tuvok a bone from time to time.


and I think we may have watched too much scifi.  But we did get a bunch of inside jokes between us out of it.  Every time a ship approaches a cloud in space, one of us will tell them to shoot it with something (which they almost always end up doing).  Anytime someone on the show says something like "heavy damage on decks 9 through 14" one of us will shout "oh no, the nursery!" (in a "won't someone think of the children" kind of way) which really only applied to TNG, but we still say it.  Lower Decks even did a version of the joke in the show. 

[Middle-aged Europe]

I haven't heard of it. I really enjoyed Picard, but I haven't watched more than the first few episodes of Discovery. I'm debating whether or not I should push through it and see if it gets better. All of Trek does have its rough edges throughout its first seasons.

Trust me... Discovery gets worse... much worse. The highpoint of that show was Season 2, hands down, when it actually came closest to resembling Star Trek. It more or less manages to hold together for the first couple of episodes of Season 3, but about one third into the season it completely collapses and never recovers from that point on. The scripts just become unbearable, seemingly on the level of badly written, overly melodramatic fan fiction and the randomly plotted, incoherent story arcs often tend to go nowhere. At times it doesn't even appear to be science fiction anymore... more like fantasy with huge chunks of soap opera infused into it.

The drop in quality is also evidenced by the IMDb ratings Discovery's individual episodes have received since the end of Season 2:

2x12: 7.5
2x13: 7.2
2x14: 8.1

3x1: 7.2
3x2: 7.1
3x3: 7.2
3x4: 6.2
3x5: 7.2
3x6: 6.4
3x7: 6.3
3x8: 5.6
3x9: 6.3
3x10: 6.3
3x11: 6.0
3x12: 6.7
3x13: 6.3

4x1: 5.8
4x2: 5.2
4x3: 5.3
4x4: 4.8

Yes, Discovery's latest episode is also its lowest-rated yet.


Lower Decks on the hand, went in the opposite direction... it improves over time, becoming sort of a spiritual successor to TNG with lots of irony and self-deprecating humor. Kind of like an animated version of The Orville, but set in the official Trek universe. The guest appearances by well-known Trek alumni like Jonathan Frakes, Marina Sirtis, Robert Duncan McNeill, John de Lancie, Jeffrey Combs, or Alice Krige also help.

[politicallefty]

the wife says she won't watch the SW TV shows.  I can maybe convince her to watch an episode to see if we'll like it.  We watched season 1 of the Mandalorian.  It wasn't as good to us as it seemed to be for everyone else.

The Mandalorian doesn't have a lot of episodes per season, so just watch that through. Season 2 has some great moments and you might have a jaw drop in the final episode. As for The Clone Wars, if you guys are going to sample it, I don't suggest the first episode. Most of the series is multi-episode stories. I don't want to give you anything from Season 7. That runs up right into and actually alongside ROTS. If you want a good sample, try either (or both) of S04E15 ("Deception") and S06E01 ("The Unknown"). Both are multi-episode stories and you guys might find them compelling enough to continue. If you do, it's worth going back and watching the entire series. If you don't like The Clone Wars, I highly doubt you'd like Rebels.

How do you and your wife feel about the prequel movies overall?

Voyager is worse than DS9 which is worse than TNG and everything is better than TOS.  Janeway wasn't the issue (though she is clearly not in the same league as Picard or Sisko), Chakotay is good too, 7of9 was excellent eye candy.  Tuvok was my favorite crew member, but they rarely gave that guy any screen time.  Kim sucked, Torres sucked, I like Robert Picardo, the Doctor was an interesting character that they used WAY too much.  It seemed like 85% of eps were focused on the Doctor or 7of9 (or both).  I understand the desire to focus on their best features, but maybe toss Tuvok a bone from time to time.

I don't know, I just felt Voyager was underrated. I entirely agree that Tuvok was underused and underdeveloped as a character. A lot of writers really don't know how to use Vulcans. Seven was a product of the network. She was supposed to be exactly what you mentioned. However, it turned out Jeri Ryan is actually a damn good actress. Voyager was subject to a lot of meddling by the network. I always felt Janeway quite compelling. I never really cared much for Chakotay, to be honest. One somewhat underrated episode that's always stood out to me was Counterpoint, not the least for this intro scene and especially the ending. It was fantastic acting and a great use of classical music.

As for Sisko, I really don't think he hit his stride until Season 4 or so. He was great during the Dominion War though.

Trust me... Discovery gets worse... much worse. The highpoint of that show was Season 2, hands down, when it actually came closest to resembling Star Trek. It more or less manages to hold together for the first couple of episodes of Season 3, but about one third into the season it completely collapses and never recovers from that point on. The scripts just become unbearable, seemingly on the level of badly written, overly melodramatic fan fiction and the randomly plotted, incoherent story arcs often tend to be go nowhere. At times it doesn't even appear to be science fiction anymore... more like fantasy with huge chunks of soap opera infused into it.

[...]

Yes, Discovery's latest episode is also its lowest-rated yet.


Lower Decks on the hand, went in the opposite direction... it improves over time, becoming sort of a spiritual successor to TNG with lots of irony and self-deprecating humor. Kind of like an animated version of The Orville, but set in the official Trek universe. The guest appearances by well-known Trek alumni like Jonathan Frakes, Marina Sirtis, Robert Duncan McNeill, John de Lancie, Jeffrey Combs, or Alice Krige also help.

I admit that my biggest problem when I started to watch Discovery is that it didn't feel like Star Trek at all. They didn't even give the Klingons hair, which I still don't understand. And then there's all that about the "spore drive". For a show that takes place during an era we know something about, they changed way too much. If you lose me on the little stuff, it's harder to pay attention to the big stuff.

I really enjoyed The Orville. It seemed to me like Lower Decks was something more like a kiddie show, but I admit I've only seen ads so far. All of the names you mentioned are quite interesting, but  I especially enjoyed Weyoun in DS9 and Shran in Enterprise. Jeffrey Combs is an underrated talent in Star Trek.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I really enjoyed The Orville. It seemed to me like Lower Decks was something more like a kiddie show, but I admit I've only seen ads so far. All of the names you mentioned are quite interesting, but  I especially enjoyed Weyoun in DS9 and Shran in Enterprise. Jeffrey Combs is an underrated talent in Star Trek.

Oh, Lower Decks is definitely an adult show... they have sex and people can die. Prodigy, which I haven't so far, is the one intended for kids.

The first half of the first season of Lower Decks is still a bit lame. The humor comes across as  more forced and the plots aren't that engaging. Things start to get better towards the end of Season 1 when it essentially becomes "animated TNG with jokes".

[7,052,770]

I'm just going to treat this as a Star Trek megathread going forward. Mods, please merge in all previous Star Trek threads if possible.

When I watched Picard back when it was new, I liked it fine, but it was kinda tedious to watch it over the course of 10 weeks. I just binged through it over a couple weeks, and I thought it was a lot better that way, since it's so heavily serialized.

None of the episodes really stand out (other than Nepenthe), and I don't think any of them would make by top 100 list for Star Trek overall, but I think it holds up better that way. Anyone who likes TNG should watch it.

[7,052,770]

On the other hand, I'm not sure if Discovery is salvageable, and I think the best plan is probably to cancel it, officially state that it takes place in an alternate universe, and just not talk about it anymore.

It's not that I hated every minute of it, but I just don't think it really "fits" into the Star Trek universe. I have such high hopes for Strange New Worlds, but I'm also really afraid it will suffer from the same issues.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Never heard of it, but I love classic Star Trek so I will be sure to check it out with the recommendation.

[7,052,770]

I've asked the mods to merge all other Star Trek threads into this one so we can consolidate onto a single thread rather than spread a little here and there.

In the meantime, I'll consider this to be the Star Trek megathread and only post about it here.

[7,052,770]

I am getting pretty excited about Strange New Worlds.

I was kinda skeptical about making a younger Uhura a character, but I'm warming up to the idea.

[7,052,770]

Similarly, making a younger Chapel a regular character is risky (and kinda funny because Number One, also originally played by Majel Barrett, is also on the show). I hope they don't depart too much from the original character.

[7,052,770]

M'Benga! He was in a couple episodes of TOS as a second doctor, so I guess he gets replaced by McCoy later on but fills in a bit.

[7,052,770]

An Aenar character played by an actor who is blind in real life. I really like him from the trailer at least.

[7,052,770]

I'm most skeptical about this one. Is she an Augment? Some kind of relative of Khan? Is this really necessary?

[7,052,770]

I love Anson Mount as Pike, but I am not sure about this plotline about how Pike "knows his fate" and can't handle it. I don't know, I just didn't like that episode of Discovery (although the scene was fantastic).

But maybe it will help fill in why Spock was so devoted to Pike in "The Menagerie," going to far as to commit mutiny and grand theft starship.

[7,052,770]

Just like in season 1, after a strong start, season 2 of Picard has been a disappointment. Still better than Discovery though.

Tomorrow is the Strange New Worlds premiere, and I'm really nervous about it.

[vitoNova]

Voyager is vastly superior over all other Star Treks, and Captain Janeway is hot.

I judge Star Trek series soley based by which crew I'd rather serve with.  And Voyager takes the cake.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Just like in season 1, after a strong start, season 2 of Picard has been a disappointment. Still better than Discovery though.

Tomorrow is the Strange New Worlds premiere, and I'm really nervous about it.

I agree with your assessment of Picard, and given the track record of both this show and Discovery I don't really have high hopes for Strange New Worlds either. I'm gonna watch the first episode or two to see whether my estimate was accurate, but it seems likely that Lower Decks will continue to be the only decent Trek show currently in production IMO.

In general I think that the era of "good" Trek ended sometime around the time of Voyager and Enterprise. Back then I used to be rather critical of Voyager, but by now it looks like friggin William Shakespeare.

In principle it's great that they managed to bring back Patrick Stewart, Brent Spiner, Jeri Ryan, John de Lancie, and Whoopi Goldberg for Picard, but given the horrendous writing they have to work with it just seems like such a waste of talent.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, I have correct myself a bit... surprisingly enough, the series premiere of Strange New Worlds turned out to be watchable. It helped that, unlike Disocvery, they actually tried to make it look and feel like TOS. It also helped that it actually had something of a plot instead of being just a dumb shoot 'em up action scenario. And just like on Discovery Anson Mount brings with himself the gravitas of a Starfleet captain.

I'm still wary though, since both Discovery and Picard originally started out at a somewhat decent level too before they eventually fell apart. Strange New Worlds still needs to prove that it can keep up the quality for an entire season.


Notable factoid: Like it or not, but when visiting an alien planet plagued by civil unrest we finally found out that political polarization and unrest in 21st century America eventually escalated into the Second Civil War which then escalated in the World War III whose aftermath we had witnessed in Star Trek: First Contact. Something the Supreme Court should probably consider before overturning Roe v. Wade.  The message in the episode came across as a bit ham-fisted and on the nose, although it's notable that it didn't amount to "muh, Trumpism bad", but "let's be brothers again".

[7,052,770]

Agreed, episode 1 was good!

On the other hand, the season of Picard that just ended was so-so. It had its moments, but if I were ranking the now 34 complete seasons of live action Star Trek, it's probably no higher than 29th, ahead of season 1 of Picard, seasons 1, 3, and 4 of Discovery, and season 1 of TNG.

I should probably do a deeper analysis than just ranking off the cuff like that.

[politicallefty]

Just like in season 1, after a strong start, season 2 of Picard has been a disappointment. Still better than Discovery though.

Tomorrow is the Strange New Worlds premiere, and I'm really nervous about it.

I'm actually two episodes behind on Picard, but I feel let down by how much they turned the entire season into one story. It's weird because this is one of the few shows where I actually let the entire intro play through. I love the intro and that quintessential musical Star Trek note at the end just strikes me. It's music that gives me hope for a darkening future.

I haven't seen the new show yet, so I'll avoid anything on that until I've seen it.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, Episode 2 of SNW was the second solid episode in a row and I'm starting to have hopes that after two duds (Discovery, Picard) they finally managed to get it right here. It certainly helps that they stripped it down to the basics. If you want to do a Star Trek show then do a Star Trek show. It's about exploration, adventure, optimism - as such, SNW is the spritual antithesis to Discovery's bleak and depressing vision (sure, Deep Space Nine was also often darker, but not that dark imo). Optimism is just what we need in the era of COVID and Ukraine.

It's essentially a modernized version of The Original Series for the 21st century. Or to cite another comparison I read recently somewhere, The Orville with (slightly) less jokes. Just don't jinx it now.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Okay, four episodes in and I think I'm sold. It has become clearer now that the quality of Strange New Worlds is consistent and that after the previous failures of Discovery and Picard they have finally managed to get their sh**t together.

In a plot that was reminiscent of The Original Series' Balance of Terror as well as The Wrath of Khan, the Enterprise is facing off against the Gorn - who have received a significant badass uprade and are now like the 23rd century equivalent of the Borg. Instead of just being a dumb action plot Episode 4 is backed up by writing like this (spoilers):





Spock: Decks are collapsing. If we do not seal them off now, loss of pressure could spread to the entire ship.
Pike: Seal the bulkheads.
...
La'an: Structural collapse on Deck 22. We've lost one crew person.
Spock: You made the logical choice.
Pike: Why doesn't it feel like that?
Spock: For the same reason you made it. Because you value life.



Uhura: So, an Aenar in Starfleet. How's that even work? Thought you guys were all pacifists.
Horak: I actually wanted to be a botanist. Love flora.... I will not fight for Starfleet. But I will defend its ideals. Pacifism is not passivity. It is the active protection of all living things in the natural universe.



Btw, I just love the show's 1970s-inspired retrofuturistic design.

[politicallefty]

[SPOILERS]

I watched all five episodes of SNW within two days and I'm absolutely hooked. I have enjoyed Picard, but this is what I was looking for in a new Star Trek series. I'm kind of just blown away by how good it is. This really feels like TOS, but with 2020s technology giving it a far more update feel. That said, it does still have that 1960s retrofuture feel, which I've always loved. Even the general look and hairstyles feel like they're updated versions of the 1960s. They really hit a homerun with this show. The characters are very likable and enjoyable. It also returns to a more episodic format, something sorely lacking in sci-fi in recent years. Plots have been overly serialized in recent years to their detriment. It's refreshing to escape that paradigm.

At first, I thought Hemmer was Andorian, until they mentioned he was blind. The Aenar haven't been seen since ENT. I always love continuity like that. It feels to me like Pike is intended to be a sort of fusion of Kirk and Picard (which is how I think they originally wanted Janeway to be).