The Official Star Trek Thread

[Middle-aged Europe]

I was expecting much worse from a teen in a somewhat goofy 80s show - in fact, he often contributes a good deal to the plot and is rarely acting immaturely or being clueless about everything.

Wasn't a frequent criticism of Wesley that he seemed a bit too perfect (/lacked any flaws) and happened to save the day while the rest of the crew looked incompetent?

Of course, that only applied to Season 1 & 2 Wesley, because he was increasingly depicted as a flawed character, starting with the Season 3 opener ("Evolution"). Not to mention what happened with him after he entered the Academy...

[Tender Branson]

Wesley is sometimes naive though, for example in that episode about that virtual-reality game which Riker brings back from Risa and Wesley says: "Why would anyone take drugs ? I don't understand this."

[Antonio the Sixth]

I was expecting much worse from a teen in a somewhat goofy 80s show - in fact, he often contributes a good deal to the plot and is rarely acting immaturely or being clueless about everything.

Wasn't a frequent criticism of Wesley that he seemed a bit too perfect (/lacked any flaws) and happened to save the day while the rest of the crew looked incompetent?

Of course, that only applied to Season 1 & 2 Wesley, because he was increasingly depicted as a flawed character, starting with the Season 3 opener ("Evolution"). Not to mention what happened with him after he entered the Academy...

Yeah, it's true that he seemed a bit too smart and competent at times, but there are only a few episode plots which are really solved by him. And besides, the "immature self-centered teen" has become such a cliché nowadays that I find it refreshing to see a young character who actually isn't an idiot or a douchebag. But I can see why he can be annoying.

[Mr. Morden]

Keep in mind, many fans hated the idea of having families on the Enterprise to begin with.  To then have one of the civilians be a teenage genius who helps the crew solve problems, who hasn't spent a day at Starfleet Academy, yet regularly outsmarts seasoned Starfleet officers, is named an "acting Ensign", is allowed to work on the bridge, sometimes sits in on meetings of the senior staff, etc…..ugh.

[politicallefty]

Wesley is sometimes naive though, for example in that episode about that virtual-reality game which Riker brings back from Risa and Wesley says: "Why would anyone take drugs ? I don't understand this."

It was even more forced in Season 1's Symbiosis, if you can recall the scene between Yar and Wesley. You have to keep in mind that that was at the height of the "Just Say No" era. (I'd say the message was apparent in The Naked Now as well.)

Have you hit the end of Season 4? If not, you're in for an interesting surprise.

Even including Locutus, for me that probably ranks at the top as far as shocking twists go.

I've finished season 1, and I quite liked it.

I'm glad you've started watching and enjoying the show. You don't have to worry about character development; that'll happen over time. Tasha Yar was written out of the show because the actress who player her (Denise Crosby) wanted to quit the show. Season 2 will have some considerable changes: Riker's appearance, Ten-Forward, and the introduction of Dr. Pulaski and Guinan (the latter played excellently by Whoopi Goldberg). Just wait until you get to Q Who.


I've revised my original post, so it now shows my top picks for every episode I've seen thus far. I'm about 2/3 of the way through Season 6. From what I've seen, the show hasn't faltered at all. Sure, there are the occasional lackluster episodes, but they're far outweighed by the great ones and fantastic acting. One thing that's really stuck out to me is how amazingly good the Romulan episodes have been throughout the entire series.

My favourites for Season 5 are pretty explanatory overall. I did notably leave off Unification, mostly because the ending in the second part just didn't work for me. However, I don't have to have seen TOS to appreciate having Spock in an episode of TNG. It was enjoyable to see Spock, not to mention the setting being on Romulus (and seeing Picard and Data in their disguises). I, Borg is up there among the best and most powerful episodes of the series. The fact that they managed to make a Borg likable is downright scary!

For Season 6, Chain of Command was really something else. The scenes of Picard's imprisonment and the dialogue between him and his Cardassian captor make for great, but disturbing television. (On a lighter note, it seems to be at this point that the writers started treating Counselor Troi seriously by finally giving her a Starfleet uniform, which leads to my next my point.) Troi's performance as a Romulan Tal Shiar in Face of the Enemy was just perfect, a clear example of where writing and acting talent met for great results. I loved this scene where she actually takes command of the Warbird. So far, I think it's my favourite episode from S6.

[Mr. Morden]

I've revised my original post, so it now shows my top picks for every episode I've seen thus far. I'm about 2/3 of the way through Season 6. From what I've seen, the show hasn't faltered at all.

I liked Season 3 the best.  Seasons 4 and 5 were also quite good, but then Season 6 is when showrunner Michael Piller left to go work on DS9, and (IMHO) the quality dropped off a little that year, and then dropped some more in Season 7.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Wesley is sometimes naive though, for example in that episode about that virtual-reality game which Riker brings back from Risa and Wesley says: "Why would anyone take drugs ? I don't understand this."

It was even more forced in Season 1's Symbiosis, if you can recall the scene between Yar and Wesley. You have to keep in mind that that was at the height of the "Just Say No" era. (I'd say the message was apparent in The Naked Now as well.)

Honestly, I found the treatment of drug addiction in Symbiosis to be quite good compared to the "Just Say No" propaganda I've seen everywhere in 80s media. It's refreshing to at least see the issue explored under the light of economic interests and exploitation for once, rather than getting once again the usual petty-bourgeois moralistic tale based on idiotic notions of personal virtue. The plot could have been much improved of course, but it's definitely not your "Just Say No" episode. Obviously, The Naked Now was just worthless padding.

I'm glad you've started watching and enjoying the show. You don't have to worry about character development; that'll happen over time. Tasha Yar was written out of the show because the actress who player her (Denise Crosby) wanted to quit the show. Season 2 will have some considerable changes: Riker's appearance, Ten-Forward, and the introduction of Dr. Pulaski and Guinan (the latter played excellently by Whoopi Goldberg). Just wait until you get to Q Who.

I'm SO looking forward to all this! From what you guys are saying about season 3 and on, it's really going to be a unique experience. Q Who is the episode that introduces the Borg right? If so, I really can't wait. I first discovered Star Trek with the First Contact movie (and I was a kid!), so let's just say I really love the Borg. I can't wait to see Picard struggling with them once again, before he became as cynical and desperate as we see him in First contact.

From what I read on TV Tropes, Crosby left because she thought her character didn't have much to do, which is a shame because the premise for it was fairly interesting.

[Mr. Morden]

I'm SO looking forward to all this! From what you guys are saying about season 3 and on, it's really going to be a unique experience. Q Who is the episode that introduces the Borg right? If so, I really can't wait. I first discovered Star Trek with the First Contact movie (and I was a kid!), so let's just say I really love the Borg. I can't wait to see Picard struggling with them once again, before he became as cynical and desperate as we see him in First contact.

Yes, "Q Who" is the episode that introduces the Borg.  The finale of Season 1, "The Neutral Zone", introduces this idea that several Federation and Romulan outposts have been destroyed been an unknown enemy.  The original idea was that this would lead into a new arc in the Season 2 premiere that would introduce the Borg.  However, because of the 1988 writer's strike, production on Season 2 was delayed (it's slightly shorter than the other seasons, for those who haven't noticed), and they had to scramble to write the opening episodes in a hurry.  So there wasn't any time to put together any kind of epic story arc.  The introduction of the Borg was delayed until later in Season 2…to "Q Who".

Also, the original concept for the Borg was that they'd be an insectoid race.  But that was deemed too expensive to do on a TV budget, at least in any remotely realistic looking way.  However, the "hive mind" concept from the insect world was retained when they switched it to a race of cyborgs.

[DemPGH]

Antonio: Glad you found Next Gen! Haha, "Code of Honor" is objectively horrible, as is "Angel One." While Gene was noted for "progressivism," both of those are pretty regressive, I'd say, and just objectively atrocious social commentary. Unintentionally funny and amusing is the best that can be said about them. "Heart of Glory" was great, though.

Lefty: You're already to "Chain of Command," great. That and "The Outcast" are about as heavy as TNG gets. Lore will return one last time for his coda soon. Won't spoil anything, though, but it's pretty fun with a lot of action. Season 7 has a lot of weird episodes ("Sub Rosa" being tops), but your point about the writing improving shows in "Dark Page." Troi's mother is finally treated seriously!

[Antonio the Sixth]

Antonio: Glad you found Next Gen! Haha, "Code of Honor" is objectively horrible, as is "Angel One." While Gene was noted for "progressivism," both of those are pretty regressive, I'd say, and just objectively atrocious social commentary. Unintentionally funny and amusing is the best that can be said about them. "Heart of Glory" was great, though.

I wouldn't call Angel One horrible, just depressingly half-assed. They got a good premise, had characters that could have made it convincing... and decided that instead of showing what the premise would result in, they decided to just waste minutes talking about stuff we barely or never actually experience onscreen. It's all one giant Informed Attribute-fest. To be honest, I think "sexy suit" idea is the only thing they got right - it looks ridiculous, but that was the point (just like, as any woman will tell you, the amount of fanservice in ads and popular culture looks utterly ridiculous). But even then, they wasted everything by having Riker be just totally fine with it (missing the whole point of depicting a matriarchy) and the president-leader-whatever be just so eager to see what a "strong man" looks like. It's not inherently bad, it's just one giant missed opportunity.

Code of Honor is obviously a disgrace, I actually had a hard time believing they were able to pull that off, even in the 1980s. I read that the guy who was responsible for it got fired soon after though, so I guess the staff got a clue.

[politicallefty]

Lefty: You're already to "Chain of Command," great. That and "The Outcast" are about as heavy as TNG gets. Lore will return one last time for his coda soon. Won't spoil anything, though, but it's pretty fun with a lot of action. Season 7 has a lot of weird episodes ("Sub Rosa" being tops), but your point about the writing improving shows in "Dark Page." Troi's mother is finally treated seriously!

Your last point isn't entirely accurate. I thought Lwaxana Troi was a very sympathetic character in Half a Life.

The Outcast actually did surprise me, as TNG has seemed to avoid the issues of sexual identity (or orientation, for that matter). While I found it to be a good episode, I can't say I liked the end result. It did some justice for sexual minorities, but I found the idea that the "therapy" was successful to be quite disturbing. I've read that Jonathan Frakes wanted Soren to be played by a male. That certainly would've made for a more interesting episode. I'll give the show a lot of credit for covering moral issues, but there was a lot of cowardice in its avoidance of LGBT issues. (The Host was another episode that basically failed in that regard. Yes, Dr. Crusher is straight and I wouldn't change that. However, they could have put more time and thought into the aftereffects. That episode pretty much ended when Odan had a new female body. It was definitely a lackluster ending that could've been a lot better.)

[7,052,770]

Was there any other TV that was nearly as pro-gay as "The Outcast" in the late 1980s? I'm assuming no.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Was there any other TV that was nearly as pro-gay as "The Outcast" in the late 1980s? I'm assuming no.

"The Outcast" aired in 1992.

L.A. Law was known for regularly doing gay-themed episodes during the late 80s and early 90s, with a total of 11 gay-related episodes, according to these lists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1980s_American_television_episodes_with_LGBT_themes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_television_episodes_with_LGBT_themes,_1990-1997

[Mr. Morden]

Was there any other TV that was nearly as pro-gay as "The Outcast" in the late 1980s? I'm assuming no.

"The Outcast" aired in 1992.

L.A. Law was known for regularly doing gay-themed episodes during the late 80s and early 90s, with a total of 11 gay-related episodes, according to these lists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1980s_American_television_episodes_with_LGBT_themes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_television_episodes_with_LGBT_themes,_1990-1997

I should watch Quantum Leap's "Running for Honor" again some time.  It aired in January 1992, two months before "The Outcast", and dealt with the "gays in the military" issue that was hot at the time.  I haven't seen it since I was a kid, and don't know how well it holds up today.

[DemPGH]

The issues with "The Outcast" were really twofold, IMO.

Unfortunately, Next Gen very blatantly chose to avoid sex and relationships completely. If anyone is sexually attracted to someone else it's because they've caught a virus or something or else suddenly and jarringly decide to abandon their feelings because those feelings might interfere professionally or something. That's one. Then you get "The Outcast," which is about a society or race of people that forces its citizens by policy to be androgynous, more or less - certainly to not identity with a gender. I think that premise, while interesting, invites a misreading because it's so strange. I'm not sure a lot of people would connect that to a gay person, or anyone, feeling like an outcast, because it's so positively bizarre. It would have been much more effective had it been a story about a female or male scientist living in a socially conservative culture and who might buck norms or whatnot, and there's a hint about sexuality. That would have made the point a LOT better, I think.

Your last point isn't entirely accurate. I thought Lwaxana Troi was a very sympathetic character in Half a Life.

Forgot about that one! That's the end of the 4th season - material for her had matured by then, yeah. That was depressing and I think featured a pre-Ro Michelle Forbes. I read that they were so impressed with Forbes that they decided to bring her back, which was a rarity. 

[Antonio the Sixth]

Halfay through season 2, it's really living up to expectations. Sure, a couple episodes were obvious padding, but most of them are still captivating and a couple of them are really well thought ("The Measure of a Man" might be the best episode I've seen so far).

[Bacon King]

1. The very best episode of any Trek is DS9's "In the Pale Moonlight"

2. My favorite fan theory is that Wesley Crusher is Picard's illegitimate child

3. The fact that TNG is almost purely episodic is not inherently a bad thing

[politicallefty]

I know this is a bump, but I thought it's worth acknowledging that I've finished TNG in terms of the series (and I've altered my original post accordingly). I've also seen three of the four movies, with the exception being Generations.

First Contact was a great movie, period. The Borg worked as a perfect villain and the ending with the actual first contact was awesome. I loved almost every minute of it. The only issue I had with the movie was the introduction of the Borg Queen. Although she was a good plot point for the movie, I felt that was a terrible decision in the larger scheme of things. To me, the Borg should not have a leader, as it is a hive mentality (I'll give a pass for Locutus, as he was meant to be humanity's introduction to the Borg).

Insurrection was an okay movie, but it could've been just as fine as a two-part episode. I really don't have much to say about it. As for Nemesis, I felt it could be so much better than it was. I didn't mind seeing what TNG could become with a super-massive budget, but the plot just failed. It could've been great, but it just wasn't meant to be.

Finishing the series, I'm divided as the best season (though I have no doubt 4-6 are the best). I'm torn between 4 and 6, but I'm probably biased towards the latter. I do think those are the best seasons, but Season 6 had a certain darkness to its better episodes that I really liked. That's why I chose Schisms as my favourite episode from that season, although Frame of Mind and Timescape were close second choices. They were pretty much full of very enjoyable mindf-cks. The season did end quite well with a Borg episode, but it didn't quite follow through with the second part.

As for Season 7, the episodes were really quite erratic. There were obvious great ones, such as Parallels and the finale All Good Things.... On the other hand, there were some lesser episodes that nonetheless ended up quite good. Attached worked very well in establishing the relationship between Captain Picard and Doctor Crusher, although it might have worked better in an earlier season. I know a lot of people don't like Genesis, but I thought it was pretty enjoyable as an episode in and of itself. The series finale was very good on its own and would have been satisfying on its own were it not for the last movie. There was a certain plot point that I strongly object to most of the way through the movie.

Going forward, I decided to watch the pilots for both DS9 and Voyager. To be honest, neither appealed to me in any strong way. DS9 seems to have the overall stronger cast, but Voyager has a stronger leader in Captain Janeway (who I really liked) despite an overall weaker cast. The DS9 pilot really rubbed me the wrong way with the interaction between Picard and Sisko. (I was excited to see Patrick Stewart as a a guest star, but I felt it was a real blown opportunity when I saw the result.) I did like the intro with the Battle of Wolf 359, but as I said, I really resent the way Captain Picard was treated in the intro to DS9. At this point, I'm strongly considering going towards Voyager over DS9.

[Marokai Backbeat]

How DS9 disrespects Picard is really the perfect set up for what DS9 turns out to be and is precisely the intent of the episode; Sisko doesn't like Picard, and the lofty values of the Enterprise simply aren't practical in situations where people are stuck dealing with complicated sh**t on a starbase day to day. It's meant to give you a taste of what DS9 as a series shapes up as; it wants to throw the established tone of Star Trek (the lofty idealism and obsession with being by the rulebook) out the window. Over time, DS9 does this incredibly well. (Sisko will also become an incredibly badass leader over the years.)

Even though DS9 starts by disrespecting probably the most popular Trek (sigh) it ends up being the most respectful series of the franchise; due to the structure of DS9's episodes it really dives deeper into a lot of the universe and tells a compelling seasons-long story.

Though if you really are married to the TNG structure I can see how Voyager would immediately strike you as more interesting, since Voyager tried so hard to ape TNG's mojo (so hard, I would argue, that it damages the show's potential super hard) and generally has an episode-to-episode structure just like it.

[Mr. Morden]

I still say Season 3 of TNG was the best.  Interestingly enough, the writing staff in the mid-to-late years of DS9 included quite a few veterans of TNG Season 3 (Behr, Beimler, Moore, Echevarria).

[7,052,770]

DS9 is kinda like TNG in that the first 2 seasons aren't as good as seasons 3-6, but I can assure you that's it's almost universally considered to be a far better show than Voyager.

[anvi]

Watched TNG when it came out, and love it still.  (For someone who watched the series as it was produced, that picture of Frakes now is mortifying.)

Liked all the seasons.  But, as a former student of AI programming, the episode in Season 2, "The Measure of a Man" is one of the most fascinating 40-some minute stretches of television I've ever seen. 

[Mr. Morden]

DS9 is kinda like TNG in that the first 2 seasons aren't as good as seasons 3-6...

I liked DS9 Season 2 better than Seasons 3 and 6.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Season 3 maybe I can understand (although, I dunno, there's a real oversaturation of Bajoran storylines in 2 that just seem dumb), but Seasons 5 & 6 of DS9 are the shining seasons of that show IMO.

[Mr. Morden]

Season 3 maybe I can understand (although, I dunno, there's a real oversaturation of Bajoran storylines in 2 that just seem dumb), but Seasons 5 & 6 of DS9 are the shining seasons of that show IMO.

About half the episodes in the opening 6 of Season 6 were great (although the resolution of that storyline was a silly deus ex machina).  And there were a few other gems throughout the season, like "Far Beyond the Stars" and especially "In the Pale Moonlight", but there were also an awful lot of clunkers, like "Time's Orphan", "The Magnificent Ferengi", and the absolute worst episode of the series, "Profit and Lace".  The season also introduced the Pah-wraiths, who were a highly unnecessary and silly foil for the Prophets.

So yes, I preferred Season 2, when Peter Allan Fields was still writing on the show.  While they're not the *best* episodes of the series, yes, I enjoyed many of those Bajoran politics episodes.

I realize that *now* the mainstream opinion of fandom is that the show got much better after the introductions of The Dominion and Worf, but I'm old enough to remember when the show was in its first run, how there was certainly a faction of fandom back then who thought that this represented a departure from the show's strengths.  Tim Lynch was perhaps the most prominent such person on the interwebs:

http://timlynchreviews.wikia.com/wiki/Season_3_Wrapup

And I guess I'm somewhere in between Lynch and the more "mainstream" view: I probably like Seasons 4 and 5 the best, but after that, I'd probably go with 2.