The Great Nordic Thread

[ingemann]

I agree that the football financing thing will likely not be a big issue (football is too popular for that..), its just that there is a bit more meat on that bone than I thought.

On the other hand it is the first time a party leader has been involved in those shenanigans and the Conservatives are branding themselves as the party for orderly, decent and moral folks, so they are more vulnerable about those tings than others.

I don't disagree, on the other hand the Conservatives brand themselves that way, it's mostly against poor people criminality not rich people criminality.

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I'm sorry I'm going to say it this way.

NO JUST NO

When people think about gay politicians, they think Bondam or Ammitzbøll . That really not people you want mentioned together with your name, especially not if you're Conservative. Yes it may seem modern,but it modern in same way RV was radicool in 2005, in a kind of Bohemian Copenhagener kind of way, the Conservatives really don't want that brand, they want something which say they're old fashion, stable and hard working.

[ingemann]

What is this Danish Whisky Belt you referred to ? I'm curious.

Its a nickname for the wealthy suburbs along the coast north of Copenhagen (the area between Hellerup and Rungsted/Vedbæk).

Yes through it also go inland, through it's unclear how far, I have heard some include Furesø and Allerød Municipalities in the Whisky Belt, and I can see the argument for it.
 

[ingemann]

http://www.thelocal.dk/20140831/14-detained-trying-to-prevent-faroe-island-dolphin-hunt

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Of course before this start a bigger discussion about killing endangered species.

Pilot whales are not endangered. There are 800 000 of the species in the north Atlantic and beside the Faroese there are little hunt of them.

The 265 000 killed whales are ones killed since the 16th century, in average 627 pilot whales are killed annual, through in some years slightly above a thousand have been killed. Both these numbers are below their natural replacement rate.

[ingemann]

My issue is more their intense social conservatism and traditionnalism. I do not care about hunting non-endangered whales. I mean, in Canada, we have the same media circus about seal hunting.

They're a bunch of fishermen living on some isolated cold inhospitable rocks in the North Atlantic, most people who want a tertiary education have to leave the island for Copenhagen; how can you expect them to be anything other than conservative and traditional. Are you really so intolerant and myopic, that you can't live with a bunch of isolated rural people not being the most social liberal people in the world.

[ingemann]

My issue is more their intense social conservatism and traditionnalism. I do not care about hunting non-endangered whales. I mean, in Canada, we have the same media circus about seal hunting.

They're a bunch of fishermen living on some isolated cold inhospitable rocks in the North Atlantic, most people who want a tertiary education have to leave the island for Copenhagen; how can you expect them to be anything other than conservative and traditional. Are you really so intolerant and myopic, that you can't live with a bunch of isolated rural people not being the most social liberal people in the world.

I'm not intolerant and myopic. I'm thinking they are neglected and not offered decent opportunities from the Danish government. They are being treated as a backward colony, no wonder they stay stuck there.

They have had home rule since 1948, which mean outside the administration of the judicial branch, the military, citizenship, foreign and monetary policy, they have autonomy, they receive annual 400 million $, they're represented in the Danish parliament. So no they're not treated as a colony, they're treated as a autonome region, which they are, and if you think we should start some kind of cultural imperialist agenda to "civilise" them, well that's you're welcome to think, I just find it intolerant and myopic.

[ingemann]

With her resignation, half (4) of the current Conservative group will not be running at the next election which will lead to the long-awaited generational change in the party.

She's not even 50.  Hard to believe she'd be considered part of the old guard of any party.

Politicus is right, but there're also the aspect that she have had the political positions she could expect to get, she's a person who is on the way down not up.

[ingemann]

Yes I think a no is unlikely in this vote, mostly because to vote yes is to de facto continue status quo, while a no would cause a completely new situation.

[ingemann]

Copenhagen flight nearly hit by Russian military jet

http://www.thelocal.dk/20141213/copenhagen-flight-nearly-collides-with-russian-military-jet

[ingemann]

Good point about the old progress party, it's rather interesting how little of the old progress party voting block which vote on DPP today. North Jutland was a stronghold for them, and DPP does worse than average there. In fact it more seem like their voters have gone to the Conservatives instead.

Of course some of that may be personality, both Kirsten Jacobsen from the Progress Party and Lene Espersen have had a great success there. We may see at next election with Espersen stopping, DPP increase significant in the region.

[ingemann]

Klaus Rifbjerg is dead. RIP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Rifbjerg

RIP

[ingemann]

Just to back Politicus up with some numbers there's less than 300 000 Muslims in Denmark (the precise number are unknown, 270 000 are most used guess, bt it's not unlikely there's less than 250 000 thousands). The only number I could find for citizenship among Muslims was 81000+. In municipal election where all people living in Denmark can vote, only 37% in 2009 voted.

Denmark as a whole have 5,65 million people.

So yes the Muslim vote even if it voted united would barely matters in national elections.

[ingemann]

Just to back Politicus up with some numbers there's less than 300 000 Muslims in Denmark (the precise number are unknown, 270 000 are most used guess, bt it's not unlikely there's less than 250 000 thousands). The only number I could find for citizenship among Muslims was 81000+. In municipal election where all people living in Denmark can vote, only 37% in 2009 voted.

Denmark as a whole have 5,65 million people.

So yes the Muslim vote even if it voted united would barely matters in national elections.

I don't really understand that, to be honest. The Muslim population in Denmark accounts for 3% to 4% of the population. In Holland it's 5% to 6%, so in relative terms, it's not that much higher than in Denmark (in absolute terms, it is, of course). Muslim voters really matter to the PvdA (which used to get some 70-80% of the Turkish and Moroccan vote), even though turnout among Muslims is lower than among the general population.

There's at best something like 50 000 Muslims who votes, turnout among Danish as a whole are between 80-90% or 3,5 million votes. DPP got 742 000 votes.

We also have that aspect that the Muslim population are split, Turk/Turkish Kurds are the biggest group with 70 000 people and from there they're split in several distinct group (Pakistanians, Arabs, Somalians, Bosniaks, Iranians etc.) and that's before we look at sectarian difference. Muslims in Denmark don't even have a common interest organisation, instead they have several who lack cordination.

It's also what make Muslim candidates to national election interesting, because they're not sectarian in nature. They need to reach Danish votes, and the few we have had who came across as sectarians was miserable failure.

The best example of a sectarian candidate was Asmaa Riyad Abdol-Hamid, a religious conservative Muslim Palestinian, who ran for the Red-Greens in 2007, it almost resulted in the Red-Green total collapse, in one polls they only got 1,6% of the vote, but they just barely survived with 2,2% (a loss of 40 000 votes or 1,6% of the vote).

[ingemann]

Not a very smart thing to say: Denmark's new Foreign Affairs minister, Kristian Jensen (V), stated that Denmark should at some point join the eurozone. However, the blue bloc parties aren't exactly enthusiastic about this. The Conservatives are skeptical, while Liberal Alliance and DPP immediately rejected the idea. According to the article, the majority would be against this, and I think a referendum would be needed to introduce the euro.

Denmark, please be smarter than us...

Do any of the Danish posters know if this is just something only Jensen wants, or that this is really part of Venstre's program? I thought V had shifted toward some more eurosceptical positions.

http://finans.dk/finans/politik/ECE7950405/Udenrigsministeren-st%C3%A5r-fast-Danmark-skal-med-i-euroen/?ctxref=ext

It's official Venstre position, it's also the position of SocDem, Social-Liberals and Conservative (through official in their EU program, they don't support it right now, but sometime in the future). SPP, DPP, Red-Green and LA are against. I think the Altenative is against.

It should be said except for maybe the Social-liberals, the parties who support Euro-membership don't want a referendum about it in the near future, including Kristian Jensen.

So what you see is KJ paying lip service to his party and government official position. Also it was the Conservatives who have shifted toward a more Euro-sceptical position, through there's voices in Venstre who want the same, but Venstre are also home to the most rights most fanatic pro-Europeans, so I don't think we will see any significant shift.

[ingemann]

I don't think she's a bad choice, but she's a weird choice, there're issues HTS believe in and have opinion about, this one is not one of them in my opinion. If she get this job, I would suspect that it's because there's a wish to make a omelet, where some quite precious eggs need to be broken. She do have a stubborness and pigheadedness, which make her excellent if you want to force something through against the general will of the people working in UNHCR.

[ingemann]

I personal expect that 2 won't happen (the Syrian refugees will never go home), but DPP will get something which make it look like a victory for them. As for increased border control this time I doubt it will get us in problems with EU, for three reasons; one is that border control is allowed in crisis, two is that Merkel have put Denmark in this situation and Denmark support her on some other points, so she won't complain, three is that this border control will likely be more intelligent than the last time., where it was meant to give Thorning trouble after she was elected.

[ingemann]

Interesting points

I suppose there will also be border control at the Öresund bridge, or is it only for the border crossings with Germany? Seems like Kjaersgaard is getting her way after all these years...

There won't be at the Øresund Bridge, unless the Swedes set it up. Her comment about closing the Øresund Bridge some years back was not a joke, but humorous in nature. Let's remember that it was her who some years back, after a this citat by Mona Sahlin...

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(I have often been asked, but I can not think of what Swedish culture is. I think it's the little things that make many Swedes so envious of immigrant groups. You have a culture, an identity, a history, something that binds you. And what do we have? We have Midsummer Eve and such "cheesy" things)


...decided to make a speech where she said began mention a whole lot of good aspect about Sweden, and you know you have said some very stupid things about Swedish culture, when a Danish nationalist leader begins to defend Swedish culture.

[ingemann]

I personal expect that 2 won't happen (the Syrian refugees will never go home), but DPP will get something which make it look like a victory for them.

That does not mean you can not put them in state run centers - outside of the normal refugee system - to begin with. So I am not so sure on that.

You could potentially also make a deal with the Greenlandic government about setting up asylum centers in abandoned settlements, or something similar. They are strapped for cash and might be willing to do it (even if Greenlanders generally hate the idea of being a "penal colony"). Kim Kielsen is a pragmatic guy - unlike Hammond.

DPP will need something that signals: "Those people will never be integrated in Danish society". Anything else will basically mean the rise of Danish Unity and a potential split by elements on the DPP right wing. They are already unhappy with the leadership moderating.

I don't think that's a problem, while polls show that a significant want someone more hardline that DPP, I have a hard see a successful split off, like it or not DPP have become mainstream, and few are willing to vote for the kind of anarchists who likely happen if we see a split from DPP, and Danish Unity while I can see the potential threat from them, I think they lack something to ever rise, they're too unpragmatic to ever create a real alternative to DPP, and I doubt they will welcome the kind of people who leave DPP.

[ingemann]

I understand that her comment regarding an Øresund barrier wasn't entirely seriously, even though the idea of border control at this crossing isn't that strange, I guess.

Holy hell @ Sahlin's statement. Our Queen Máxima, originally from Argentina, said something similar when she was still a princess. It wasn't appreciated. Nonetheless, there might be some truth in it, even though I thoroughly appreciate Kjaersgaard's attempt to refute her claim. However, in my opinion, the very lack of a distinct Dutch/Swedish/[insert Western European country]ish identity stems from the ongoing war against these countries' traditions that has, especially in Northern Europe, mainly been waged by... social democrats, which is why Sahlin should probably be more ashamed than Máxima. I don't think this would have been an issue 50 years ago.

The Swedes do have a clear identity, culture, history etc which bind them together, through sometimes seem there's a Kulturkampf to destroy those things, just as there is in Denmark and all other countries. Of course such Kulturkampf exist all over the world and is natural, what's unique in Sweden and why people like Mona Sahlin will lose that battle is that while she tries redefine Swedish identity and culture, she deny that any such exist. When you choose that kind of battle you will always lose, because no one like that obnoxious and clueless elitists say they don't have any identity or culture.

[ingemann]

Wow the cluelessness is astonishing.

[ingemann]

Well "culture" is all fluid and constantly changing. European culture is dynamic enough to survive in a changed form. This isn't like the Native Americans or Abroginals Australians, whose culture was obliterated along with them.

Oh, of course. You won't hear me saying things like that. But at the same time I think there is a rather large gap between the way Atlas Americans tend to see European societies and the way Atlas Europeans tend to see European societies. On the surface, sure, every cinema has popcorn, shows the Avengers and there will always be a Burger King or McDonald's close to the cinema. However, that's not really what culture and identity are about. Like Politicus said, most European countries do have their own cultural characteristics. The fact that many American posters don't see this, doesn't mean that these should be deemed irrelevant or (worse) objectionable.

I would agree that there's a disconnect on the modern left between people think that culture associated with Brown people is great and culture associated with White people is terrible. That is hypocrisy. A lot of Europeans here have seemed to respond to it by going "well all cultures are valuable and have the right to self determination" That's consistent but I don't agree with it. I'm saying all cultures are rendered frivolous and irrelevant in the modern world.

Not really, what you're say is "my culture is universal and it's frivolous for other not to adopt it, because their cultures are irrelevant".

[ingemann]

Well "culture" is all fluid and constantly changing. European culture is dynamic enough to survive in a changed form. This isn't like the Native Americans or Abroginals Australians, whose culture was obliterated along with them.

Oh, of course. You won't hear me saying things like that. But at the same time I think there is a rather large gap between the way Atlas Americans tend to see European societies and the way Atlas Europeans tend to see European societies. On the surface, sure, every cinema has popcorn, shows the Avengers and there will always be a Burger King or McDonald's close to the cinema. However, that's not really what culture and identity are about. Like Politicus said, most European countries do have their own cultural characteristics. The fact that many American posters don't see this, doesn't mean that these should be deemed irrelevant or (worse) objectionable.

I would agree that there's a disconnect on the modern left between people think that culture associated with Brown people is great and culture associated with White people is terrible. That is hypocrisy. A lot of Europeans here have seemed to respond to it by going "well all cultures are valuable and have the right to self determination" That's consistent but I don't agree with it. I'm saying all cultures are rendered frivolous and irrelevant in the modern world.

Not really, what you're say is "my culture is universal and it's frivolous for other not to adopt it, because their cultures are irrelevant".

What's my culture though? I don't care what food people eat, what clothes they wear, what music they listen to. It really does not matter at all to me. The only thing I care about is that people aren't put to death for non-violent crimes or imprisoned for their opinions. Also, socialized medicine is nice. Beyond those things though, anything goes.

Your culture are that you tell your self that you don't care about what food people eat, what clothes they wear, what music they listen to. that It really does not matter at all to you. That the only thing you care about is that people aren't put to death for non-violent crimes or imprisoned for their opinions. The value that you shouldn't care about all those are fundamental cultural in nature.

Of course you do care, I could bring a lot of things up inside these borders you have set up, which you would care about.

Let's example say we have a guy who mastubate outside a kindergarden, even through he doesn't hurt anybody, you would be very much against he doing and think he should be stopped. We all set border up somewhere (and I set up a example so far out, that I think everybody would agree with it). Here you care enough to think the law should stop him.

Also you care when somebody hear sh**tty music in public and want them to stop, but recognise they have a right to hear sh**tty music. That's a cultural value too.

Also you care enough about two Danes and a Dutchman discussing culture enough to declare you find it offensive, and deciding to lecturing them about what their cultures in reality are (Avengers and McDonald), and how their inferior and savage culture should be replace with your superior one, which you think is so universal, that it's not even a culture but a universal way of life.

[ingemann]

Oh my

Well there's a minor scandal in the government where minister of defence Carl Holst who's former Chairman of the Region of Southern Denmark used a employee in the region (Christian Ingemann Nielsen) as a personal assistant in the election campaign and now he work for him as a so called "spin doctor". It's in itself a minor scandal. The problem is that Carl Holst have handled it in the worst possible way including lying to the press and being caught in doing so.

It doesn't help that Christian Ingemann Nielsen is a complete idiot, who's a walking disaster on his own, and Holst have handled two other media storm badly since the election, and that no one get why he has become minister of defence including himself (he should become minister of heath a area he do have experience in).

[ingemann]

I'm going to disagree with Politicus, yes this party may have 12-15% who would think about voting for them, but the problem are that several other parties fill that niche (in fact those 12-15 can vote for every other right wing party). In my eyes this is in best case just the Liberal Alliance with a little more xenophobia mixed in or Conservatives with a anti-EU attitude, in the worst case this are just DPPs who think that DPP is too uncultivated, proletarian and statists. They simply lack a empty niche, this is not Alternative which delivered something radical new, it's not the Red Greens which united a whole bunch of minor parties, who together had a viable niche, this is a party deciding that there's room between DPP, C and LA to a new party, there's barely room to Conservatives there and suddenly this new party should feel a need in this crowded arena? Of course if it's lucky it can make it above the threshold, but unless Conservatives are killed off, this party may simply be the conservative version of Common Course, Left Socialist and all the other left wing parties who enjoyed a short success in the 70-80ties.

As for some kind of Unity List (Red Greens) on the right, I see that as much more viable. But I doubt you can bring the different parties together without them eating each others. The Red Greens is a miracle, which was only possible because the fall of USSR allowed them to purge the pro-Moscow communists.

[ingemann]

It's not because I don't think exist, the problem is that the group, while strongly represented in the intellectual milieu, are not very well represented in the population as a whole. The bulk of conservative voters was always craftmen, lower civil servants and the petite bourgeois, but these group have to large extent left the Conservatives and the Whiskey Belt conservatives, which Peter Seier belong to have a large part of the fault, it's no accident that the most successful conservative in the 20th century came from a rural market town rather than from north of Copenhagen. So yes there's a potential group of voters for this party, but I think it's just much smaller than you think, I don't think the potential conservative voters in Elsinore, Frederiksberg and Odense want this party, they want what Schlüter gave them, a pragmatic people's party, not a elitary and "cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes" version of DPP. This party may may sell well in the Whiskey Belt and north Jutland, but outside those areas, I think the base are rather limited.

Also you're correct I come from a generational long Social Democratic background, but it's not traditional as it's rural rather than urban on my father's side (and to some extent adopted out of spite) and on my mother's side it's unusual because my grandmother was the daugther of a factory owner. So I have a lot of family who voted and still vote Conservative and Liberal, of course they didn't belong to Copenhagen conservative, but to market town conservatives, who's a lot less low taxes and free market than their counterparts in Copenhagen. 

[ingemann]

I do believe that 12,8% want a party to the right of DPP, but on immigration. Those 12,8% may not like the other things wecons represent. Also there's a thin edge between being to the right of DPP and going full racist, relative few voters like the latter.
There was a interview with Vermund and Seier in "Cordua og Steno" yesterday, I think you should hear it, it was interesting. Beside the obvious thing, they didn't believe in man-made global warming and they wanted to raise the development aid to the third world.