Santorum: Obama 'A Snob' For Wanting Everyone To Go To College

[TJ in Oregon]

College classes don't make people liberal, the rather libertine social environment does.

Realisticidealist has found the main point of why college makes people more liberal. It's mostly not because some professor rams socialism down your throat (as some occasionally do, but I doubt that changes too many people's minds anyway). It's because of the campus environment where binge drinking is nearly ubiquitous and condoms are handed out that say things like "Love is Never Wrong", and the university residential housing staff is blatantly cheerleading liberal social causes. That's why college makes people liberals, folks. It's much more from that than it is from some random sociology professor.

[Torie]

College classes don't make people liberal, the rather libertine social environment does.

Realisticidealist has found the main point of why college makes people more liberal. It's mostly not because some professor rams socialism down your throat (as some occasionally do, but I doubt that changes too many people's minds anyway). It's because of the campus environment where binge drinking is nearly ubiquitous and condoms are handed out that say things like "Love is Never Wrong", and the university residential housing staff is blatantly cheerleading liberal social causes. That's why college makes people liberals, folks. It's much more from that than it is from some random sociology professor.

Booze and sex makes one into a "liberal?"  Anyway, I have seen a couple of studies that based on self reports, conservative men are more sexually active and aggressive than liberal ones, FWIW.

[ajb]

College seems not to make people more secular, FWIW:

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/studies-refute-santorums-claim-that-attending-college-reduces-religiosity.php?ref=fpblg

If college works as it's supposed to, it encourages people to ask more questions, and to think more critically. That doesn't guarantee that it makes people more liberal.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I can't help having a pale complexion, and I'm a Japanese Literature major. Where do I stand?

You don't stand, you seiza.

[NHI]

I can't stand this man. Santorum is the snob.

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I would argue that university steers people away from critical thinking. There's very little reward for questioning a prof and when folks have scholarships on the line - considerable pressure to conform with the prof. Given the fact that you have a 10-1 chance of getting a democrat vs republican - it's not hard to guess which way people end up going.

[Wisconsin+17]

That study btw argues that those who do not attend college show a steeper decline.

Do I really have to explain why this doesn't actually prove Santorum's point is wrong?

Say folks who go to college and folks who do not go to college have scores of 85 and 25 respectively - before they go.

Then when they leave - the college folks score 10 and the folks who do not go to college score 65, who had the greater absolute decline?

Who's decline is far more significant?

Statistics are fun things - btw. The rate of change of religiousity says nothing about where that religiousity starts, nor does it even show anything other than the absolute decline is greater - rather than percentage wise.

As for the claim that a minority of those become more religious - I can totally believe this. This - however, doesn't speak for the majority. If 50 percent of the whole said that they became more religious, then yes, one could say that university was pushing people towards, rather than away from religion. But if the pool of folks going to university is not very religious - and a minority say that they become more religious - what happens to the other 75?

[ajb]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I would argue that university steers people away from critical thinking. There's very little reward for questioning a prof and when folks have scholarships on the line - considerable pressure to conform with the prof. Given the fact that you have a 10-1 chance of getting a democrat vs republican - it's not hard to guess which way people end up going.

Even if what you're saying were true (and I don't believe for a minute that it is), and even if every course that students took in university was on a subject where the controversies neatly aligned with the Democratic-Republican, or conservative-liberal divide (and that's definitely not the case), wouldn't it also be true that hearing a new, less conservative, point of view from your professors -- and figuring out both how to write in support of that position, even though you didn't share it, and how to maintain your own convictions in the face of this new intellectual challenge -- would be wonderful training for your critical thinking skills?

[ajb]

That study btw argues that those who do not attend college show a steeper decline.

Do I really have to explain why this doesn't actually prove Santorum's point is wrong?

But Santorum was citing this very study to show that he was right. And you'd have to agree that the study doesn't do that.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I should point out that I actually don't agree with the idea that college should be necessary or is even always desirable. There are plenty of people who are more suited to tech schools or on-the-job training, and there should be a greater diversity of options in higher education beyond the university format in general. I'm nevertheless a product of the academic class myself and am inclined to defend it from some of the sorts of specific accusations that have been going on in this thread.

[Likely Voter]

maybe this could be an issue like taxes and spending cuts where they all try and outdo each other. Now that Santorum has come out against going to college, Newt Gingrich will up the ante and attack high school eduction. Then Ron Paul can come out and say that kids should just be thrown in a room with a book and let the free market decide. The one who comes out reading is the winner and the rest can go f--k themselves.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I would argue that university steers people away from critical thinking.

*notes that the above poster has a Carlyle quote in his signature*

*cackles for about five minutes*

[Badger]

College seems not to make people more secular, FWIW:

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/studies-refute-santorums-claim-that-attending-college-reduces-religiosity.php?ref=fpblg

If college works as it's supposed to, it encourages people to ask more questions, and to think more critically. That doesn't guarantee that it makes people more liberal.

Actually, that's the definition of encouraging liberal thought. And that's not a bad thing at all.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I would argue that university steers people away from critical thinking.

*notes that the above poster has a Carlyle quote in his signature*

*cackles for about five minutes*

Case in point.
Only someone with as much education as yourself would be able to construct such an intracately compounded double ad hominem.

[ajb]

College seems not to make people more secular, FWIW:

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/studies-refute-santorums-claim-that-attending-college-reduces-religiosity.php?ref=fpblg

If college works as it's supposed to, it encourages people to ask more questions, and to think more critically. That doesn't guarantee that it makes people more liberal.

Actually, that's the definition of encouraging liberal thought. And that's not a bad thing at all.

Oh, absolutely. It's just that it's perfectly possible, in my opinion, for that liberal process to lead individuals to become conservative. And that's OK, too.

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I was trained in this aspect well before university. I did not receive comparable training at university wrt critical thinking. Ergo, my thesis that university does not prepare one to critically think, but rather instills one with the common knowledge of the age. This is in itself a service - it is more difficult to advance the current state of knowledge without an understanding of the present day.

As for Carlyle, I identify with him. He was an irascable malcontent romaticist, stuck in a profoundly unhappy marriage who struggled greatly with his faith, and in a materialist age.

I can count the fingers on no hands the number of times my professors actually referred to Carlyle.

[hotpprs]

Wow. This topic really came out of nowhere. And if a Presidential Candidate said that 14 years ago I would have said it is ridiculous. Not today.
College costs are rising way faster then anything else, even property taxes and medical expenses in the last few years seem to be expanding slower then college costs. Why?
Everyone feels they HAVE to go to college, and the demand for admissions is driving up the costs.
So does it make sense for college students and/or their parents rack up loans from $80 to $160 for college when they are pretty sure they may not need it for their careers?
My friend's son is now landscaping for a living, and is soooo pissed he has to pay off a $80K loan for something he didn't need. He felt he was pushed into an expensive school he wasn't sure he wanted to attend.
I have 2 daughters and plan to send them to college, and my wife and myself went to good private colleges. So I am not against college, but Rick's statement is so bold and profound in this new global economy we have, it shows that he has much more of a pulse of what is going on with the middle class then any of the other 3 GOP candidates.
I cringe every time I hear that companies have to hire foreign graduates because American college grads don't have the skills they need. This is a crock in my opinion. I think companies are just looking to pay less, and American kids need a bigger salary to pay off their school loans.
Does anyone really believe that if we flood the college campuses with students taking science and math that all these millions of new jobs we need will suddenly appear from outer space?
So this statement isn't about mocking college, it's about defending parents and kids who honestly feel they don't need it, and don't need to waste all that money, just out of guilt or keeping up with the Joneses.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Everyone feels they HAVE to go to college, and the demand for admissions is driving up the costs.

Because everyone does need to go to college to have the best chance possible at a successful future. Obviously, there will be people out there capable of being a success without college, but these are very clearly the exception, and not the rule.

It genuinely bothers me that the GOP is continually going back to the same well of mocking education. Not the educational system, but the simple act of being educated. It's insane.

[pbrower2a]

In what country does everyone go to college?

Nowhere. But lots of countries do better than the United States these days.

Actually, on the contrary, the US has the second-highest percentage of the population with a college degree in the world: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_att_ter-education-educational-attainment-tertiary

Yes, but if you look only at workers under 35, the US scores 12th.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2010/0809/Obama-aims-to-lift-college-graduation-rates-but-his-tools-are-few

In other words, the US was in the lead on this issue for decades, but has faltered in the last 20-30 years.

EDITED: "under 45" corrected to "under 35"

Telling. College education used to be inexpensive in America. Now it usually comes with a burden of debt about as big as that for a trailer.

[Wisconsin+17]

Trailer? You live in Michigan. Can't you buy houses for a fraction of the cost?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Bill Gates says hi.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Bill Gates again says hi.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Education is useful. But there's this thing called 'marginal utility'.

One - even if education is helpful to everyone in some way - is it the most efficient thing for everyone? No. There are people who are better off for not having gone to college at all, let alone staying for a complete degree.

I realize it is a difficult thing - but you can do many things with 80k in your pocket - and that's what not getting a college degree will do for you.

Only 25 percent finish their degree, that is not going to change much, unless you change the quality of education in university, which also hurts the marginal utility. Making college grades 13-6 won't actually improve things at all.

What is going to happen - is you are going to see more people wash out - and fewer finish. Does this help the student? No. Does this help the school? For sure. They see enrollment go up - without the burden of having flunked out.

Not all go to college - and this is a good thing. Pushing everyone to go and then flunk out is a substantial negative to the student.

I wonder how different high school advisors would be if they worked like the stock market. You could put money behind a kid like you do with Intrade. I think that would be a much more enlightening thing to show the true value to actually lose if you make a wrong bet on a kid or steer a kid in the wrong direction.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

This kind of talk would be inconceivable 20 years ago. Now Rick doesn't want our population to be educated, and if they are, they are snobs?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

This kind of talk would be inconceivable 20 years ago. Now Rick doesn't want our population to be educated, and if they are, they are snobs?

Believing that wanting 100% of our population going to college is undesirable does not equate to wanting 0% of our population to go to college.

There are snobs who think work that involves something other than brainpower is degrading.  I wouldn't say that either party has more or less snobs than the other.

[ajb]

This kind of talk would be inconceivable 20 years ago. Now Rick doesn't want our population to be educated, and if they are, they are snobs?

Believing that wanting 100% of our population going to college is undesirable does not equate to wanting 0% of our population to go to college.

And wanting everyone in the country to
"commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. This can be community college or a four-year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship"
is not the same thing as wanting 100% of our population to go to college. Santorum was fighting a straw man here.

[Insula Dei]

Trailer? You live in Michigan. Can't you buy houses for a fraction of the cost?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Bill Gates says hi.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Bill Gates again says hi.

Because dropping out of Harvard to start your own computer company is equivalent to jumping onto the job market with nothing but a high school diploma and no real plan for the future?

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If 'college opens you up to the most possibilities', why is it that the wealthiest man is a college drop out? If that were in fact true- we would expect the wealthiest man to have went and finished college - not the case.

It may be true that college is beneficial - but certainly not for everyone, and it certainly doesn't 'open up to the best possibilities. Nonsense.

College is a long time in a period of your life that can be spent more productively than attending classes. That is if you want the absolute best outcome.