Israeli Ministry of Immigrant Absorption pulls "offensive" ads

[BigSkyBob]

Whoa.

Christmas will never be banned in the USA because the economic importance of Christmas shopping is too important to the American economy.  I would think Jewish Economists would recognize the importance of Christmas.  Christmas is significant in that not only is it a religious holiday, but it is also based on the Winter solstice, which is the darkest day of the calendar year.  As a holiday in the darkest and coldest week of the year, Christmas is an important cultural celebration for families and societies.  

The Jewish religion has an important emphasis on power and influence, and the global spread of Christianity and cultural Christianity directly antagonizes Jewish culture.  Instead of wanting gentiles to celebrate their faith or celebrate their Christianity openly, it seems that many Jewish leaders hate gentiles and would rather encourage Jewish elitism in American society and global culture.  

Reactionary bigots always try to find a way to victimize themselves to make their hatred seem more rational.  Of course there is no way a bigot can read the minds of millions of Jewish people around the world, so this post is just even more ridiculous.  Yeah, let's believe all of the stereotypes of the money hungry power obsessed Jewbag who is intent on World Domination and hates Charity and Goodwill!  The Trademarks of Godfearing Christianity!

But way the go Milhouse and BigSkyBob!  You guys continue to impress me with your attempts to play the Victim Card while going all out with the "holier than thou" attitude towards cultures different than yours!  It's been awhile since I've seen somebody so sufficiently come to the defense of Christmas while putting those closet communist atheist Jews back in their places!  HOW MURICAN!!!

But seriously fellas, what act are you going to pull for us next?  The "Blacks are uppity, lazy, and steal our money" act?  Or how about "Prohibition should be brought back to keep the Pope from running America!" play?  I hear that one got Five Star Reviews back in the 1920's!

I can't wait!

If you wish to assign motives to me, would you please post what statements of mine to which you are refering?

[Badger]

Wow. I almost wish Libertas could be unbanned for a day (NO longer ) just to see what he'd post here. He was usually a bit better at keeping his views covert, but often he just couldn't help himself. He'd certainly find some real fellow travelers among the BS Bob and Millhouse brain trust.

[ag]

96% of Americans celebrate Christmas in some way, and 76-83% of Americans are Christian (definitions and survey results vary somewhat), which means that the vast majority of non-Christians celebrate Christmas. Virtually the only people who don't celebrate Christmas are Jews who make a point of not celebrating it, recent Asian immigrants, Muslims, and small groups of ultra-Fundie Christians who are put off by the pagan rituals that have seeped in since ancient times.

I don't celebrate Christmas (ok, I am Mexican, but, neither did I celebrate it when I lived in the US). Yeah, I am of Jewish origin, but I am not religious and I don't make any points. It is just that I have chosen to stick to one non-personal holiday a year - the New Year. I even put up a tree - I just decorate it on Dec. 26th ) So, my kids have to wait an extra week for the gifts - big deal On the good side, I get to buy them at the discount

[dead0man]

I don't celebrate Christmas (ok, I am Mexican, but, neither did I celebrate it when I lived in the US). Yeah, I am of Jewish origin, but I am not religious and I don't make any points. It is just that I have chosen to stick to one non-personal holiday a year - the New Year. I even put up a tree - I just decorate it on Dec. 26th ) So, my kids have to wait an extra week for the gifts - big deal On the good side, I get to buy them at the discount

If you're serious (and I have no reason to doubt you) that is freaking genius.  The Christmas celebrating at our house is very nebulous.  No tree, no pile of wrapped presents or decorations of any kind.  We get the kids sh**t, but at our leisure.  The boy has been playing Arkham City for a few weeks now, part of his Christmas.  Why wait?  I can understand getting all into it and stuff, we just don't.  Just seems to me that in 2011, it's more of a celebration of buying sh**t than anything else.  Nobody cares about Santa's virgin birth anymore.

[milhouse24]

96% of Americans celebrate Christmas in some way, and 76-83% of Americans are Christian (definitions and survey results vary somewhat), which means that the vast majority of non-Christians celebrate Christmas. Virtually the only people who don't celebrate Christmas are Jews who make a point of not celebrating it, recent Asian immigrants, Muslims, and small groups of ultra-Fundie Christians who are put off by the pagan rituals that have seeped in since ancient times.

I don't celebrate Christmas (ok, I am Mexican, but, neither did I celebrate it when I lived in the US). Yeah, I am of Jewish origin, but I am not religious and I don't make any points. It is just that I have chosen to stick to one non-personal holiday a year - the New Year. I even put up a tree - I just decorate it on Dec. 26th ) So, my kids have to wait an extra week for the gifts - big deal On the good side, I get to buy them at the discount

Another good reason why Festivus will take over from Christmas as being a secular religion. 

Basically, I'm anti-religion, and if anyone supports theocracies, then they are anti-American.  However, I do recognize that everyone should be able to celebrate their faith fully and openly, without harassment or harassment of non-believers. 

[milhouse24]

That bro is bonkers!

Regardless, it's time we began to fully fund the War on Christmas.

There is a cultural war between Christians and Jews (supposedly secular). 

But the ACLU wants to limit Christianity in order to weaken Christian influence on society, and allow their chosen religion to exert power and influence as elected leaders and officials. 

But as a non-religious and anti-religious person, I am not at all offended by open expressions of faith by people who care about their religion.  If someone wants to openly embrace and display their enthusiasm for Christmas, then I support their freedom of religion as an American and as a person who takes interest in learning about different cultures and faiths.  If someone wants to invite me to celebrate Hannakah or Passover, then I would be open to learning about their culture.  I would be willing to learn about Ramadawn and Muslim cultures because I believe that America is open to all religions, races, and cultures.  If the US government believes that enough of the population cares about specific religious holidays, then I'll accept that because as a majority rules democracy, we must abide by desires of the majority population, even if we disagree with them.  What I don't support is any attempts by one religion to restrict another religion.  In theory, religious people should not worry about different religions.  Anyone who claims they are offended by displays of religion, such as Christmas and Christianity, is un-American and doesn't understand our founding principles of freedom of religious faith and expression. 

[Link]

It's not a federal holiday.

Are you saying Federal employees don't wear costumes to work on that day?

Someone needs to buy you a dictionary.  I swear every thread with this guy...  What is with you redefining words?  Is this the new form of debating style they are teaching in junior high schools today?

Polio is a contagious disease, HPV is not.

That's a lie.

Everything thing I stated I believe to be True, therefore, it cannot possibly be a "lie."

If you have any evidence that I am in "error," by all means share it.

http://bit.ly/usPR1S

[BigSkyBob]

I have yet to receive a substantive reply to my query, "Is there anything wrong with celebrating Christmas?" [I have read some guilt by association tactics to some poster whom I don't know, and have never read.]

The only stab at I have read is some nonsense about "Jewish identity," whatever that is.

Well, "Jewish identity," presumably, would include a number of things such as adhering to dietary restrictions, ritual genital mutilation for infant boys, not driving a car on Saturday and, practising the faith of Judaism. The commercial could be reshot to her opening the refrigerator to find a pork chop, rack of lamb, or a cheese burger. The commercial could be reshot to him dropping trow exposing himself in a natural state. The commercial could be reshot to him suggesting a Saturday pleasure drive. And, the current commercials attack the lack of faith of American immigrants.

My point is that the decision to not eat pork is arbitrary. There is nothing wrong with eating pork, and, there is nothing wrong with any particular "Jew" choosing to eat pork. There is nothing wrong with male anatomy, and, there is nothing wrong with any particular "Jew" having a son with a natural penis. There is nothing wrong with a Saturday drive. And, there is nothing wrong with any particular Jew driving on Saturday.

If celebrating Christmas is just another arbitrary preference for "Jewish identity," then, the basic presumption ought to be that there is nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas. Why isn't anyone acknowledging that fact? It is as if these folks believe the case against celebrating Christmas is stronger than merely an arbitrary preference.

I find it bizarre that "Jews" whom renounces Judaism for atheism, and eat pork are considered to have a stronger "Jewish identity" than folks whom marginally embrace Judaism, adhere to some dietary restrictions, but, celebrate the secular holiday of Christmas. Clearly, there is some animus to Christmas.

What could it be?

[ag]

There is nothing wrong w/ Christians celebrating Christmas. There isn't anything wrong w/ non-religious people celebrating Christmas either (though I choose not to - for a whole bunch of personal reasons). But for a religious and/or simply traditional Jew doing so is, basically, a public denial of the Jewish identity, an act of High Treason, if you wish. Few Jews who adhere to dietary restrictions would celebrate Christmas - they make a point of celebrating Hanukkah instead. Among the secular Jews it is mixed - but, in general, celebrating Christmas is a sign not merely of secularism, but of serious degree of assimilation.

There is a difference between not following Jewish traditions and following alien traditions: sort of the same difference as between eating pork and getting baptized (BTW, Israel takes a serious view of this distinction: you can run a pig farm and eat your pigs daily, cooked in milk, and still be eligible for Israeli citizenship as a Jew; get baptized, and you are excluded).

It's not just the Jews, for that matter. Many (Orthodox Christian) Russians would consider it High Treason and Latin heresy to celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25th (instead of Jan. 7th).

Jewish identity has survived in Western countries for so long precisely because Jews refused to conform to the mores and traditions of the outside (Christian) world. I am, mostly, amused that you are so shocked by this: it seems to me just evidence of extremely poor education.

[BigSkyBob]

There is nothing wrong w/ Christians celebrating Christmas. There isn't anything wrong w/ non-religious people celebrating Christmas either (though I choose not to - for a whole bunch of personal reasons). But for a religious and/or simply traditional Jew doing so is, basically, a public denial of the Jewish identity, an act of High Treason, if you wish.

If some individual Jew opts to eat pork, no other Jew is harmed in any way.

If some individual Jew opts to not have his son's penis mutilated, no other Jew is harmed in any way.

If some individual Jew opts to drive his car on Saturday no other Jew is harmed in any way.

If some individual Jew opts to celebrate Christmas, no other Jew is harmed in any way.

And, if some individual Jew marries a Christian, no other Jew is harmed in any way.

Now, you can deem celebrating Christmas "High Treason," as if decorating a tree is fundamentally the same as what the Rosenburgs, or Jonathan Pollard did, but, that doesn't make any sense.

Frankly, if violating Jewish tradition is "high treason" most Jews would be subject to execution. Some eat pork, more eat lamb, shell fish or shark, and few have any real objection to a cheeseburger. Many, if not most, have embraced atheism.

If any behavior could reasonably be deemed "high treason" it would be intermarriage. About half of Jews opt for intermarriage. Tell us again how it is somehow not as bad to marry a Christian whom will pray to Jesus Christ in your home, and expose your children to the Gospels of Jesus Christ than it is to hoist a tree in December, place little ornaments on that tree, and exchange gifts with friends and family?

That something seems to be an extreme and irrational distaste for the holiday. Why can't you simply admit it?

You, also, blatantly contradict yourself when you first declare that there is nothing wrong with nonreligious people celebrating Christmas then you blast nonreligious Jews for celebrating Christmas.

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Are you suggesting that "assimilation" is any way a bad thing? We are a nation of immigrants whom have assimilated into the culture here.

Concerning the next sentence, there is nothing "alien" about American traditions in America.

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And, that basis would be arbitrary religious edict, not objective concerns. I thought we were talking about what was rational and not what was merely arbitrary.

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Well, as Orwell noted long ago, "Ignorance is strength." If you wish to embrace the self-serving ignorance that any criticism of "Jewish identity," whatever that means, cannot be "educated," then, that leaves you in a similar mental state to many Fundamentalist Christians whom believe that Satan has infused himself into their critics.

I have no doubt that inculcating children with irrational beliefs that outsiders are unclean, impure, unholy, and not to be trusted could enforce group solidarity. I am merely noting that the attitudes inculcated into those children are irrational and prejudicial. There is absolutely nothing wrong with eating pork, or hoisting a tree in December and exchanging gifts among friends and family. Equating such things with "high treason" is morally wrong, and a totally unacceptable way of encouraging group solidarity.

It could very well be that without such tactics assimilation is inevitable, but, that isn't my problem. 

[ag]

My dearest BSB,

1. I am not much of a part of Jewish tradition in pretty much any sense other than considering the gefilte fish and farshmak supreme heights of culinary perfection (and, perhaps, occasionally singing some garbled Yiddish songs to my daughters as lullabies  - froylakh zol zayn - or swearing in the same language). If anything, I come from the Soviet Communist tradition - that includes my choice of holidays and timing for tree decoration ) If I actually organize the celebration under that tree I decorate on Dec. 26th, I eat the Russian salad and drink vodka (with a side of good Ukrainian bacon - another culinary glory about which, apparently, one of my ancestors used to remark that "everything that's nice and pleasant isn't for the Jews").

2. Thus, I haven't been expounding about my own views of Christmas, but, rather, trying to explain you how it seems from the standpoint of some of my more traditional fellow tribesmen.

3. It is undoubtedly true that from a Jewish standpoint there is a gross difference between not following Jewish traditions and accepting gentile traditions. It is one thing to eat pork (in fact, to make a point of including pork in every meal) and quite another thing to get some of that red wine that symbolizes some shlimazl's blood in Christian services.

[ag]

(continued)

4. As far as I am concerned, assimilation is a wonderful thing - except, as a rootless cosmopolitan (in the wonderful definition of Comrade Stalin), I haven't yet chosen what to assimilate into. However, this is a decidedly uncommon view among my fellow tribesmen, who tend to view it with great dislike. And, if you'd think about it, had that view not been the dominant among the Jews throughout the history, there would have been no Jews today. The likes of myself are not part of the community, and our offspring will be even less Jewish, till within a few generations one of my great-grand-children becomes an imam and another a Shinto or Hindu priest (hey, I myself have some partiality to Ganesh - a god w/ such a belly can't be bad). Do I personally see any problem w/ it - not at all, I'd be delighted. But I wouldn't announce that delight even to my own grandmother - she might disinherit me.

5. Same about intermarriage. Actually, I am a mishling, as is my wife. If my daughters marry Chinese Muslims or Zulus I won't object in the least. But it is a decidedly uncommon view among both American Jews and Jews in general - nothing particularly Israeli about it. Most Jewish mothers (and, for that matter, fathers) would prefer a "nice Jewish boy/girl" to anyone else.

[ag]

(continue)

6. But enough about myself. Time to take up some of your concerns.

7. There is nothing rational or irrational about celebrating any holiday on any particular day - it's a personal choice and preference. If some (in fact, quite a few) people don't like to measure time using the callendar introduced by a certain 16th century pope, preferring the version introduced by a Roman dictator, I don't see why that offends YOU that much. They are not telling you when to celebrate the Feast of the Dormition of the Holy Virgin, are they?

8. In fact, that's the most remarkable. All I (and others) have been trying to do is to explain the reason for the common Jewish attitude to a particular Christian holiday. No Jew (unlike some evangelicals) actually objects to Christians eating turkey and going to the movies on a certain day in December - they just prefer doing those things on other days. No Jew is forcing you to fast on the Day of Atonement - they will even hire a shabbes goy to work in the store, so that you can continue buying your bacon and cheese on that day in peace. It is, however, making you explode in the high tantrum at the Jewish perfidy that some people don't want to take party in a perfectly arbitrary, and, if I may, often rather tacky, celebration.

[BigSkyBob]

My dearest BSB,

1. I am not much of a part of Jewish tradition in pretty much any sense other than considering gefilte fish and farshmak supreme heights of culinarian perfection (and, perhaps, occasionally singing some garbled Yiddish songs to my daughters as lullabies  - froylakh zol zayn - or swearing in the same language). If anything, I come from the Soviet Communist tradition - that includes my choice of holidays and timing for tree decoration ) If I actually organize the celebration under that tree I decorate on Dec. 26th, I eat the Russian salad and drink vodka (with a side of good Ukrainian bacon - another culinary glory about which, apparently, one of my ancestors used to remark that "everything that's nice and pleasant isn't for the Jews").

2. Thus, I haven't been expounding about my own views of Christmas, but, rather, trying to explain you how it seems from the standpoint of some of my more traditional fellow tribesmen.

3. It is undoubtedly true that from a Jewish standpoint there is a gross difference between not following Jewish traditions and accepting gentile traditions. It is one thing to eat pork (in fact, to make a point of including pork in every meal) and quite another thing to get some of that red wine that symbolizes some shlimazl's blood in Christian services.

Here are your previous words:

"But for a religious and/or simply traditional Jew doing so is, basically, a public denial of the Jewish identity, an act of High Treason, if you wish."

Do you believe that hoisting a Christmas Tree, and exchanging gifts among friends and family constitutes "high treason" or not? If that is something you don't believe, it is odd that you stated it rather matter of factly.

Celebrating a holiday several days after the winter solstice has been a Western tradition since before Jesus Christ walked the earth. Germanic peoples have hoisted trees before they were Christianized by the Romans. This simply isn't about accepting "gentile traditions." It is about accepting "Western tradition."

[ag]

(continued)

9. To sum up, I find it hard to explain your righteous explosion with anything other than some deep-seated feeling of anymosity to all those who are not like you. Yes, Jews were the original European "migrants", who refused to assimilate and tried to lead separate lives in the middle of the Christian world and Christian civilization. This has always brought my ancestors nothing but pogroms, massacres and all sort of other tsores. But I thought that blaiming these particular victims has been recognized as non-kosher by "civilized" people, at least after 1945 - that attitudes is now reserved for Muslims, Hispanics and other modern "migrants". Or am I wrong?

10. It is not I, who is ignorant here. I know my history, I can look at the world from multiple viewpoints (even from your own ) ). That is why your own pristine ignorance is so amusing to me. Unfortunately, that ignorance is exactly what has fed the basest anti-semitism for centuries.

[ag]

Do you believe that hoisting a Christmas Tree, and exchanging gifts among friends and family constitutes "high treason" or not? If that is something you don't believe, it is odd that you stated it rather matter of factly.

Me? I have committed my own share of acts of High Treason - too many to bother about them anymore

But we were talking not about myself, but about the common Jewish perception. It varies, but for the very traditional view, participating in a Christian religious celebration is, obviously beyond scandalous. Participating in a pre-Christian (pagan) celebration is even worse. It is better than, say, getting baptized and taking a communion in a church (that is, indeed, High Treason, that implies excommunication), but it is a serious sin.

[ag]

Celebrating a holiday several days after the winter solstice has been a Western tradition since before Jesus Christ walked the earth. Germanic peoples have hoisted trees before they were Christianized by the Romans. This simply isn't about accepting "gentile traditions." It is about accepting "Western tradition."

This is where you ignorance shows the most. Had the Jews been willing to accept these "Western traditions" they would have completely disappeared over a 1000 years ago. This refusal to accept is EXACTLY what they've been persecuted for all these centuries - and what they went to the gladiator ring, the fire of the inquisition and, in the end, to the gas chambers, to die for.  I am surprized that you find it acceptable to express such, fudnamentally, pogromschik opinions in public.

And, of course, if Christian celebration is an apostasy, a pagan celebration is a lot worse.

[ag]

BTW, of course, all this is absolutely irrelevant to the original point of this thread. The reason Israeli government stopped this campaign has nothing to do w/ Christmas (they couldn't care less what BSB or anybody else thinks about this being a Day of Peace - that registers with them even less than the Jewish viewpoint of the thing w/ BSB). 

The reason is that it is, fundamentally, offensive to the diaspora Jews and puts in perspective the fundamental difference in both self-identification and intrinsic interests of the two communities (the one in the diaspora and the one in Israel). It's not that the Israeli government cares much about the (non-Israeli) Jews (it doesn't - in fact, it wholeheartedly dislikes them) but it recognizes in them the most important constituency that provided both material and political support to the Israeli state. Losing that support for the moment is inexpedient. That's all.

[BigSkyBob]

(continue)

6. But enough about myself. Time to take up some of your concerns.

7. There is nothing rational or irrational about celebrating any holiday on any particular day - it's a personal choice and preference. If some (in fact, quite a few) people don't like to measure time using the calendar introduced by a certain 16th century pope, preferring the version introduced by a Roman dictator, I don't see why that offends YOU that much. They are not telling you when to celebrate the Feast of the Dormition of the Holy Virgin, are they?

There simply isn't a there there in your statements. I accept the fact that Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas on what they believe to be December 25th. At no point have I ever implied anything to the contrary.

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Are you really trying to whitewash Jewish attitudes towards Christmas day? The notion that it is just another day to Jews isn't True. For instance, Jewish tradition encourages procreation on Holy days for the obvious reasons. But, if a Holy Day happens to be on Christmas, Jews are encouraged to not have sex on Christmas day because it would be unholy to conceive a child on Christmas day. There are lists of encouraged activities for Christmas day such as playing Chess. Chess, basically, focusing the mind on a benign activity least any subversive thoughts occupy on such a day.

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The commercial appealed to anti-Christian prejudice. I noted that fact. The only "high tantrum" I have read are those whom wish to rage ad hominem.

[BigSkyBob]

Celebrating a holiday several days after the winter solstice has been a Western tradition since before Jesus Christ walked the earth. Germanic peoples have hoisted trees before they were Christianized by the Romans. This simply isn't about accepting "gentile traditions." It is about accepting "Western tradition."

This is where you ignorance shows the most. Had the Jews been willing to accept these "Western traditions" they would have completely disappeared over a 1000 years ago.

No doubt. I have already stated as much.

Again, my point is that promoting bigoted, and prejudicial  attitudes is wrong, even if it is an effective, or even necessary,  tactic against "assimilation."

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I think you should read what Israel Shahak had to write very carefully. His basic contention
was that Jewish/Western conflict was rooted as much in anti-Western prejudice amongst Jews as it was in anti-Jewish prejudice against Westerners. Shahak contends that if a real understanding is to be reached Jews have to fundamentally rethink their attitudes not just blame everything on the goyim.

You could accuse him of "antisemitism," but, I remind you that he was Jewish himself.

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That claim is silly. There are pagan forms and there is pagan substance. Apostasy is adopting pagan substance. Forms are not inherently problematic.

[Хahar 🤔]

For instance, Jewish tradition encourages procreation on Holy days for the obvious reasons. But, if a Holy Day happens to be on Christmas, Jews are encouraged to not have sex on Christmas day because it would be unholy to conceive a child on Christmas day.

Do you have a source for this?

[BigSkyBob]

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/About_Holidays/Non-Jewish_Holidays/Christmas/Jews_and_Christmas/Eastern_Europe.shtml

I think this clearly lays to rest the myth that Jews consider Dec 25th just another day. It's not just another day, it is a bad day.

[ag]

My dearest BigSkyPogrom,

Why do you care what Jews think of Christmas? Jews don't care what you think of Simchas Toyre or Purim. Let people be different from you - I'd have hoped, at least the Jews would have been allowed that, given the price they've paid for this right to be different, even if you won't leave other minorities alone.

[dead0man]

That's what I don't get...why the hell does he care how other people celebrate (or not) a holiday?

[BigSkyBob]

My dearest BigSkyPogrom,

Why do you care what Jews think of Christmas?

Again, the issue was raised in a commercial in which the Israeli government used the word "Christmas" in a highly offensive manner. Judaism can think about Christmas whatever it wants, just as Christianity can blame Jews for Christ's death and condemn them to eternal damnation for not believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Freedom of religion includes the freedom to believe offensive things.

What freedom of religion does not include is an absolution from having to take responsibility for believing offensive things. Jewish attitudes towards Christmas are offensive. I am not going to lectured, browbeaten or shamed into believing something that simply isn't true.