Underlying trend

[J. J.]

Wasn't there something illegal about the contract? I believe they were looking into that.

When it comes to that Mayor's comments, it shows that he is not a leader. I believe he made a second comment that the Brothers and sisters were still in charge of the city and if you don't like it, register Republican. These are good comments? I don't care about the color of someone's skin either, J.J. It's the fact that he uses race to divide us. Could you imagine if a white guy said "The whites are running this town." Could you imagine?

This Mayor has not done a good job with this city. People leave the city. Buisness stays away. Without the bugging, Street would have been gone. I wonder if they'll have approval ratings come out at the end of his term. I don't think he'd get above 45%.

No, so far there has been nothing illegal about the contract with the relatives.  They've look and found nothing.

The comment that hear said nothing about Republicans.  He said, to a Black group, "We're in charge."  He citied those previously mentioned positions, the holders of which are African American (and one at least was Rendell appointee).  I didn't like remark, but I took the intent to be "Black people are now able to hold these positions; we've come into our own."  If a White mayor had said to the same group and referring to the same people, "You're in charge," I think I would have found that offensive as well.

Well, on your third point you can make the same claim about every mayor over the last 50 years.  Street has been trying to lower both business and income taxes to help with that.

The polls, prior to the "bugging," showed Street leading, though the numbers opened up after that.  There was also a trial involving a business that Katz owned and fraud; they got a civil conviction, I believe.

The bugging made it a route, but it still would have been a Street victory without it.

[J. J.]

J.J., this is one of the few areas me and Keystone actually agree.  His "brotha and sistas" comment along with telling us to vote Republican if we don't like it was very offense to me as a Democrat.  At times I've had the difficult task of defending the national Democratic party because of Street.  Street is lucky Terry McAuliffe or any other prominent Democrat didn't dime his ass out for saying that because if I were DNC chair or representing say PA 13, I would in 2 seconds.  Granted, I realize some whites up here amplify how much they dislike Street because of his color, but Street is not helping us or the African American community.  I would vote for a black mayor if I see it fit.  A small part of the reason I am a Democrat is I get the priviledge of choosing our next mayor, which you or Keystone will simply find out the Wednesday after the primaries unless Frank Rizzo runs and even then I doubt it.     

I'm not defending Street's comments.  I was offended by them.  I would have much preferred for him to have said, "and the reason we are in charge is because we are good for the city, not because we are Black."

Is he helping those communities that I'm familiar with, Germantown and North Philadelphia.  My answer has to be a resounding yes.  He's been taking down abandoned buildings, towing abandoned cars, putting more police at bad areas, and in my neighborhood, plowing the streets.  So far, he's not raising taxes to do it.

Now maybe the "abandoned car/house" issue isn't important in you neighborhood; maybe your neighborhood doesn't have any "bad areas."  That is not typical of Philadelphia.

[Keystone Phil]

Wasn't there something illegal about the contract? I believe they were looking into that.

When it comes to that Mayor's comments, it shows that he is not a leader. I believe he made a second comment that the Brothers and sisters were still in charge of the city and if you don't like it, register Republican. These are good comments? I don't care about the color of someone's skin either, J.J. It's the fact that he uses race to divide us. Could you imagine if a white guy said "The whites are running this town." Could you imagine?

This Mayor has not done a good job with this city. People leave the city. Buisness stays away. Without the bugging, Street would have been gone. I wonder if they'll have approval ratings come out at the end of his term. I don't think he'd get above 45%.

Well, on your third point you can make the same claim about every mayor over the last 50 years.  Street has been trying to lower both business and income taxes to help with that.

The polls, prior to the "bugging," showed Street leading, though the numbers opened up after that.  There was also a trial involving a business that Katz owned and fraud; they got a civil conviction, I believe.

The bugging made it a route, but it still would have been a Street victory without it.

Yes, I frequently make the point about every Mayor for the past 50 years and I intend to make that point until something changes. Street hasn't made the situation any better.

The polls did show Street leading before the bugging but not by much. The city wasn't happy with him. I honestly think he would have lost by about 2-4 points.

[Keystone Phil]

J.J., this is one of the few areas me and Keystone actually agree.  His "brotha and sistas" comment along with telling us to vote Republican if we don't like it was very offense to me as a Democrat.  At times I've had the difficult task of defending the national Democratic party because of Street.  Street is lucky Terry McAuliffe or any other prominent Democrat didn't dime his ass out for saying that because if I were DNC chair or representing say PA 13, I would in 2 seconds.  Granted, I realize some whites up here amplify how much they dislike Street because of his color, but Street is not helping us or the African American community.  I would vote for a black mayor if I see it fit.  A small part of the reason I am a Democrat is I get the priviledge of choosing our next mayor, which you or Keystone will simply find out the Wednesday after the primaries unless Frank Rizzo runs and even then I doubt it.     

Now maybe the "abandoned car/house" issue isn't important in you neighborhood; maybe your neighborhood doesn't have any "bad areas."  That is not typical of Philadelphia.

We have our problems up here, J.J. I went for a drive with my friend a couple nights ago and there was ice on almost every side street. We actually had to drive up an icy hill. He says we'll get every street plowed. He sits in some snow plow for the TV cameras. How come many of the side streets in the Northeast were in poor condition?

[J. J.]

J.J., this is one of the few areas me and Keystone actually agree.  His "brotha and sistas" comment along with telling us to vote Republican if we don't like it was very offense to me as a Democrat.  At times I've had the difficult task of defending the national Democratic party because of Street.  Street is lucky Terry McAuliffe or any other prominent Democrat didn't dime his ass out for saying that because if I were DNC chair or representing say PA 13, I would in 2 seconds.  Granted, I realize some whites up here amplify how much they dislike Street because of his color, but Street is not helping us or the African American community.  I would vote for a black mayor if I see it fit.  A small part of the reason I am a Democrat is I get the priviledge of choosing our next mayor, which you or Keystone will simply find out the Wednesday after the primaries unless Frank Rizzo runs and even then I doubt it.     

Now maybe the "abandoned car/house" issue isn't important in you neighborhood; maybe your neighborhood doesn't have any "bad areas."  That is not typical of Philadelphia.

We have our problems up here, J.J. I went for a drive with my friend a couple nights ago and there was ice on almost every side street. We actually had to drive up an icy hill. He says we'll get every street plowed. He sits in some snow plow for the TV cameras. How come many of the side streets in the Northeast were in poor condition?

Mine is, in general, and I'll admit that it was missed this last time.  There are no TV cameras around.

[J. J.]

Well, on your third point you can make the same claim about every mayor over the last 50 years.  Street has been trying to lower both business and income taxes to help with that.

The polls, prior to the "bugging," showed Street leading, though the numbers opened up after that.  There was also a trial involving a business that Katz owned and fraud; they got a civil conviction, I believe.

The bugging made it a route, but it still would have been a Street victory without it.

Yes, I frequently make the point about every Mayor for the past 50 years and I intend to make that point until something changes. Street hasn't made the situation any better.

The polls did show Street leading before the bugging but not by much. The city wasn't happy with him. I honestly think he would have lost by about 2-4 points.

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Gee, the population of a large Northeastern city has been declining.  I'm shocked by the news.

Well, has Street tried to do something about.  Yes, it deals with livability to "abandonment issue" and community policing.  To pay for it all, he's raised income and business taxes how much?  Zero.

Even on strict policy issues, Katz would have lost.  He favored a tax cut, but wanted to finance it with a bond issue and wasn't talking about the livability issues.

As for the comment about "We're in charge," Street was so committed to advancing his race that he retained that great African Americian police commissioner when elected, John F. Timoney.  I guess Dublin was South of Ireland.  (That is sarcasm for you non-Philadelphians)

[CARLHAYDEN]

Been following the discussion with amusement.

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

[Keystone Phil]

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

Timoney is white.

[Alcon]

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

Timoney is white.

People who are black Irish are not necessarily black, to my knowledge. I had an english teacher who was quite clearly white, but was black Irish.

[Keystone Phil]

Well, on your third point you can make the same claim about every mayor over the last 50 years.  Street has been trying to lower both business and income taxes to help with that.

The polls, prior to the "bugging," showed Street leading, though the numbers opened up after that.  There was also a trial involving a business that Katz owned and fraud; they got a civil conviction, I believe.

The bugging made it a route, but it still would have been a Street victory without it.

Yes, I frequently make the point about every Mayor for the past 50 years and I intend to make that point until something changes. Street hasn't made the situation any better.

The polls did show Street leading before the bugging but not by much. The city wasn't happy with him. I honestly think he would have lost by about 2-4 points.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

As for the comment about "We're in charge," Street was so committed to advancing his race that he retained that great African Americian police commissioner when elected, John F. Timoney.  I guess Dublin was South of Ireland.  (That is sarcasm for you non-Philadelphians)

I guess you're one of those "Let's just manage the decline" type people, J.J.? Don't think that this city can grow? Let's get some new leadership and I bet buisness and people will begin to change their thinking of this city.

As for Street retaining Timoney, I don't think because someone makes racist comments that they will suddenly only appoint members of their race to positions of importance. If memory serves me right, I think Street made a comment that the FBI and national GOP were afraid to see a black man in power so that is why the bug was planted. Give me a break.

[Keystone Phil]

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

Timoney is white.

People who are black Irish are not necessarily black, to my knowledge. I had an english teacher who was quite clearly white, but was black Irish.

I just read of J.J.'s comments. He was being sarcastic.

[CARLHAYDEN]

The term "Black Irish" is currently used with a deprecatory meaning by the Catholic Irish to describe the Protestants of Ireland who have historically supported the British rule of Ulster. "Black" in this sense connotes the "religious and political bigotry.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

Timoney is white.

Ask a Catholic Irishman about the 'black' Irish.  But stand back before he answers, as you may get a torrent of words which won't exactly be kind.

[J. J.]

I guess you're one of those "Let's just manage the decline" type people, J.J.? Don't think that this city can grow? Let's get some new leadership and I bet buisness and people will begin to change their thinking of this city.

As for Street retaining Timoney, I don't think because someone makes racist comments that they will suddenly only appoint members of their race to positions of importance. If memory serves me right, I think Street made a comment that the FBI and national GOP were afraid to see a black man in power so that is why the bug was planted. Give me a break.

Well, first of all, I am one those people that notes that Norteastern (and Midwestern) cities have tended to lose population over the last 50 years.  It has to do with the ability to commute to work.  Now, are you suggesting we nuke the Skuylhill Expressway, I-95, and the bridges into New Jersey?

If you want to solve that problem you have to attract residents.  You do by not overtaxing and inproving the quality of living, like Street has done.

My memory does not indicate that Street said any such thing.  Commentators around the country did.  There was also criticizm of the Balimore Federal Attorney for targeting (nonexistent) public corruption cases.

If the Feds, at the local level, really wanted to depolitize the bugging, the could have issued a letter that Street was not the subject of the investigation at the time.  They did after the election.

[Keystone Phil]

I guess you're one of those "Let's just manage the decline" type people, J.J.? Don't think that this city can grow? Let's get some new leadership and I bet buisness and people will begin to change their thinking of this city.

As for Street retaining Timoney, I don't think because someone makes racist comments that they will suddenly only appoint members of their race to positions of importance. If memory serves me right, I think Street made a comment that the FBI and national GOP were afraid to see a black man in power so that is why the bug was planted. Give me a break.

My memory does not indicate that Street said any such thing.  Commentators around the country did.  There was also criticizm of the Balimore Federal Attorney for targeting (nonexistent) public corruption cases.

If the Feds, at the local level, really wanted to depolitize the bugging, the could have issued a letter that Street was not the subject of the investigation at the time.  They did after the election.

I'm pretty sure Street made that comment and he wanted voters (especially black voters) to think that this was some big conspiracy against him.

[J. J.]

I'm pretty sure Street made that comment and he wanted voters (especially black voters) to think that this was some big conspiracy against him.

I heard a few commentators, mostly from outside the city, saying that.  I heard even more stating how stupid law enforcement was for doing it.  I agree with the second point.

If the FBI really wanted to depolitze this, they could have.  They did not.  They put, what turned to be an unwarrented cloud of suspision over Street 6 weeks prior to the election.  That was improper.


I can understand why a few people, both Black and White, might have wanted to "box the ears" of the Federal prosecutor for doing that.

[minionofmidas]

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

Timoney is white.

Ask a Catholic Irishman about the 'black' Irish.  But stand back before he answers, as you may get a torrent of words which won't exactly be kind.

I think you're thinking of the Black and Tans, named for the colours of their uniforms.

[J. J.]

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

Timoney is white.

Ask a Catholic Irishman about the 'black' Irish.  But stand back before he answers, as you may get a torrent of words which won't exactly be kind.

I think you're thinking of the Black and Tans, named for the colours of their uniforms.

The "Black Irish" were supposedly decendents of the dark complexion Spanish survivors of the Armada.  I've heard Black Irish refer to themselves as "Black Irish," so I'm not sure the term is derogatory.

[12th Doctor]

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

Timoney is white.

Ask a Catholic Irishman about the 'black' Irish.  But stand back before he answers, as you may get a torrent of words which won't exactly be kind.

I think you're thinking of the Black and Tans, named for the colours of their uniforms.

The "Black Irish" were supposedly decendents of the dark complexion Spanish survivors of the Armada.  I've heard Black Irish refer to themselves as "Black Irish," so I'm not sure the term is derogatory.

It is not a derogatory term in the least.  And, though the legend is creative, it is wrong.  Gentically, in many parts of Ireland and in Welsh and and western English lands, there is a strong preference towards darker looking, "heavier features".  These people, thought still having lightly complected skin, have dark hair and eyes and some fetures of the forehead, nose and jaw-line that look somewhat more mediterranian than Northern European.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

According to some research done fairly regulary, the most common stereotype people in England have of the Welsh is:

"A land of short dark men, singing hymns in the shadow of slag heaps"

And that's been the main stereotype for Godknowshowlong...

[minionofmidas]

According to some research done fairly regulary, the most common stereotype people in England have of the Welsh is:

"A land of short dark men, singing hymns in the shadow of slag heaps"

And that's been the main stereotype for Godknowshowlong...

You forgot the part about ...er... creativity.

Spoken in the early 17th century (some guy got fined for saying that:) "I would rather trust a thief than a lawyer, but I would rather trust a Welshman than a priest."

[dazzleman]

Have you considered that Timoney may be 'black' Irish?

Timoney is white.

Ask a Catholic Irishman about the 'black' Irish.  But stand back before he answers, as you may get a torrent of words which won't exactly be kind.

I think you're thinking of the Black and Tans, named for the colours of their uniforms.

The "Black Irish" were supposedly decendents of the dark complexion Spanish survivors of the Armada.  I've heard Black Irish refer to themselves as "Black Irish," so I'm not sure the term is derogatory.

It is not a derogatory term in the least.  And, though the legend is creative, it is wrong.  Gentically, in many parts of Ireland and in Welsh and and western English lands, there is a strong preference towards darker looking, "heavier features".  These people, thought still having lightly complected skin, have dark hair and eyes and some fetures of the forehead, nose and jaw-line that look somewhat more mediterranian than Northern European.

The term "black Irish" is not derogatory at all.  In fact, many of the lighter Irish are jealous of the "black Irish" because they are perceived to be more physically attractive.

The story I heard about the "black Irish" is that they originally came from Spain.  Some Irish names, such as Costello, are actually of Spanish origin, so this lends some credence to the story.

If you are looking for a derogatory name for some Irish, "shanty Irish" is the way to go...

[??????????]

My wife is black Irish and she has traced her ancestors as being from spain and mixing with her Irish ancestors.

[patrick1]

Costello is a Norman-Irish name, like Burke, Butler, Doyle, any of the Fitz names etc.  The only solid connection with Spain is that the original inhabitants of Ireland came from Spain around 10,000 years ago.  As a result, genetics have found a strong link betweeen Basaque and West Coast Irish- where the darker Irish are prevelant.  The Celts who invaded Ireland later brought with them the traits of blondism and red hair.  The myth was that the survivors of the Armada landed in Ireland- it is false and fanciful.  There are some isolated instances of Spanish families in Ireland but ther reverse was much more prevalent- "Flight of the Earls"
The most famous Irishman of "Spanish blood" was Irish President and Taoiseach Eamonn de Valera who was born in New York City to an Irish mother and Hispanic father.

[patrick1]

According to some research done fairly regulary, the most common stereotype people in England have of the Welsh is:

"A land of short dark men, singing hymns in the shadow of slag heaps"

And that's been the main stereotype for Godknowshowlong...

Starts singing the March of the men of Harlech.  Great song btw.