Israel and Palestine

[Gustaf]

I notice no one here supports it becoming entirely Palestine, or even split 50/50.

JFK,

The only question for me was whether or not I advocated the eradication of all Palestinians. But since I'm not that amoral, I voted for Israel being the sole state. However, I think Israel needs to do what it's in its best interests, and that may mean a two-state solution in the current political environment where the rest of the world, other than the U.S., seems to be strongly pro-Palestinian.

That's doubtful, I think. Few people like Sharon, but a lot of people are generally pro-Israel.

[Gustaf]

are you sure it wasn't offered? I know they offered Gaza and the West Bank at one point, my friend said that they offered 45% of Israel before.

I know for a fact they offered all the land they conquered in 48 during the war with surrounding Arab nations

My friend you got all mix up.
No one will offer more then a return to 1949-1967 lines. the Arab nations invaded Israel, not an inch was taken from them until farther attacks in 56' 67' 73' (and most of it givem back). the 67' lines are the borders the un aprove, the question is the future of the west bank and Gaza. O/c many palestians want to destroy Israel

The UN proposed splitting it ISralis 55%, Palestinians 45% in the late 30s, but the Palestinians refused at htat time.

[Gustaf]

I notice no one here supports it becoming entirely Palestine, or even split 50/50.

JFK,

The only question for me was whether or not I advocated the eradication of all Palestinians. But since I'm not that amoral, I voted for Israel being the sole state. However, I think Israel needs to do what it's in its best interests, and that may mean a two-state solution in the current political environment where the rest of the world, other than the U.S., seems to be strongly pro-Palestinian.

That's doubtful, I think. Few people like Sharon, but a lot of people are generally pro-Israel.

I don't think Sharon will win re-election, the stunt with Sheik Yassin was more to increase his falling popularity.

Sharon is 76 and will not run in 2007
If his goverment falls befor that time it's b/c a corruption buisness involving his sons

yeah, it has hurt his popularity, doesn't he have pretty low approval ratings at the moment?

Barak was good I believe, he was a good guy, offered peace and land to the Palestinians but they refused, he was assassinated wasn't he?

No, I think you're thinking of Yitzhak Rabin, who was assasinated by Israelis after negotiating the Oslo peace.

[Gustaf]

are you sure it wasn't offered? I know they offered Gaza and the West Bank at one point, my friend said that they offered 45% of Israel before.

I know for a fact they offered all the land they conquered in 48 during the war with surrounding Arab nations

My friend you got all mix up.
No one will offer more then a return to 1949-1967 lines. the Arab nations invaded Israel, not an inch was taken from them until farther attacks in 56' 67' 73' (and most of it givem back). the 67' lines are the borders the un aprove, the question is the future of the west bank and Gaza. O/c many palestians want to destroy Israel

The UN proposed splitting it ISralis 55%, Palestinians 45% in the late 30s, but the Palestinians refused at htat time.

No
That was Un resolution on 29/11/1947
the jews exepct, the arabs reject, the war started, in it's end Israels border was created (49' or 67; lines)/ they are official. As the late Aba Even used to say: "the arabs never miss an oportunity to miss an oportiunity"

I seemed to remember that it was first proposed in 1937...but other than that we're not differeing.

[Gustaf]

are you sure it wasn't offered? I know they offered Gaza and the West Bank at one point, my friend said that they offered 45% of Israel before.

I know for a fact they offered all the land they conquered in 48 during the war with surrounding Arab nations

My friend you got all mix up.
No one will offer more then a return to 1949-1967 lines. the Arab nations invaded Israel, not an inch was taken from them until farther attacks in 56' 67' 73' (and most of it givem back). the 67' lines are the borders the un aprove, the question is the future of the west bank and Gaza. O/c many palestians want to destroy Israel

The UN proposed splitting it ISralis 55%, Palestinians 45% in the late 30s, but the Palestinians refused at htat time.

No
That was Un resolution on 29/11/1947
the jews exepct, the arabs reject, the war started, in it's end Israels border was created (49' or 67; lines)/ they are official. As the late Aba Even used to say: "the arabs never miss an oportunity to miss an oportiunity"

I seemed to remember that it was first proposed in 1937...but other than that we're not differeing.

Gus you just made post #6666
the cabinet just decided will give any member a six pack...

LOL!

'The number of the beast'

[Gustaf]

isn't that 666 rather than 6666?

yeah

6666 is just for the 6pack

Of course, but it was pretty close, nonetheless.

[Gustaf]

There's something I find EXTREMELY confusing in this thread. On numerous occasions, I have praised both JFK and Gustaf because they seem to have so much knowledge relative to other young people. But now I have a serious question for both Gustaf and JFK...

How is it you guys know so much about the United States and European history, but absolutely nothing about Israeli/Palestininan history...as Dunn pointed out in a polite fashion earlier in this thread?

What do you mean with 'absolutely nothing'? I admit that I might have been wrong on the year in which the 55-45 division plan was proposed, but I don't know what else I know 'absolutely nothing' about? I would very much like you to opint taht out, since I don't want to go around being unknowledgeable...if that's a word, lol.

Seriously, I think I know most important years, etc, like all the wars and so on.

[Gustaf]

There's something I find EXTREMELY confusing in this thread. On numerous occasions, I have praised both JFK and Gustaf because they seem to have so much knowledge relative to other young people. But now I have a serious question for both Gustaf and JFK...

How is it you guys know so much about the United States and European history, but absolutely nothing about Israeli/Palestininan history...as Dunn pointed out in a polite fashion earlier in this thread?

I will tell you . First they do know a lot for young people , second the european and some american news organization are bias and don't give the historical facts

Look at my above post. Tell me what I've been wrong on.

[Gustaf]

I know the Palestinian tactics have been pretty horrendous, they attacked Israel on Yom Kippur (sp?), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar which is pretty bad. I am not quite sure what you are implying?

JFK,

What I was trying to "draw out" was that any lack of knowledge on the part of you and/or Gustaf was strictly a result of the anti-Israel bias that you now doubt were subjected to in your European educations...my intent was to absolve you of your lack of historical accuracy and blame the left wing anti-semites who dominate European media and/or classrooms.

MarkDel,

I did not take it that badly...but I see that I made one mistake...note though that I'm still not convinced that the division plan was not first put forward by the British in 1937... Not contradicting the UN plan coming up in 1947, mind you...

On the reason, I don't see our posts indicating that we have recieved anti-Israel info? I think the sad case is rather taht history has been a low prioerity in Sweden for a long, long time and we don't learn much about smaller countries like Israel.

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

I am very curious to hear about how you know what the Swedish press wrote about, since I didn't know you knew Swedish...I didn't read anything about 'Zionist hatred' in 3 of the 5 existing national newspapers my family gets everyday...and the art exhibit did not have a direct link to the goverment, it was in a museum, the ambassador was invited to a conference.

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

[Gustaf]

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

Most anti-semitism in Europe comes from Muslim immgrants though...but there's more in CONTINENTAL Europe, MarkDel hardly exists among Swedes, I'm pretty sure.

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

I am very curious to hear about how you know what the Swedish press wrote about, since I didn't know you knew Swedish...I didn't read anything about 'Zionist hatred' in 3 of the 5 existing national newspapers my family gets everyday...and the art exhibit did not have a direct link to the goverment, it was in a museum, the ambassador was invited to a conference.

Gustaf,

To be perfectly honest, I read US and British accounts of what took place, and they "paraphrased" some of the reporting from Sweden. Wasn't the exhibit held at a government sponsored museum and wasn't the Israeli Ambassador there per an invite?

The museum is sponsored by the government but I don't think they have any control of it. It was 1 exhibition, by one artist. I agree that it was bad taste to have it up, even though you might be intersted in hearing that the artist who constructed it is a Jew himself...I do however think that the ambassador did step over the line, even though I can understand his sentiment. It's possible now that you say it that he was invited to the exhibition...it had to do with the conference, but I'm not sure of the exact link.

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

[Gustaf]

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

Most anti-semitism in Europe comes from Muslim immgrants though...but there's more in CONTINENTAL Europe, MarkDel hardly exists among Swedes, I'm pretty sure.

Gustaf,

Well...I hope you're right...

I am. There's racism, mind you, in fact there's a lot of the paradoxal 'Dutch racism', but Sweden has never had a strong anti-semitism, not even in the 30s.

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

[Gustaf]

Dunn,

Yes, they rationalize the terror by calling people "insurgents" instead of terrorists...as just one example.

Well, I have never read about them being called that in a Swedish newspaper, that's for sure...in fact, of the 2 only national morning papers in Sweden, 1 has a conservative editorial which means REALLY pro-Israel and the other is liberal which mean REALLY, REALLY pro-Israel...

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

Gus I don't know about Sweden but 17% is Italy and the one don't think Israel has a right to EXIST, way more support terrorism (if it's against jews and also americans, not a few left wing europeans were acctually glad about 9/11). And the numbers un Spain, Germany, France, Belguim, Nerherland are way worse

The only people in Europe I know of who were actually HAPPY about 9/11 were Muslim children living in Europe. Most left-wingers aren't evil people who want people to die, you know. No offense, but I actually live here, and I think both you and MarkDel are letting your prejudices carry you away. I am well aware that Europe is not a great supporter of Israel and so on, but I don't think a lot of people actually wish you to die or anything like that.

[Gustaf]

Over here "real" anti-semitism is mostly confined to Muslims and right wingers...

That's basically my point. Though I do think there are some radical left-wingers as well.

M,

I can definitely understand your sentiment. I like Amos Oz, from what I can remember he's a very reasonable person. He got a prize of some sort, in Sweden I think, and there was an interview with him on tv, about a year ago or so. I remember my mum was impressed with him and used him in her 'speech to the spring' that someone in our neighbourhood holds every year to greet the spring.

[Gustaf]

That's basically my point. Though I do think there are some radical left-wingers as well.

That´s right. I think extreme leftists (and I mean REALLY extreme) see themselves as "anti-Zionist", because Zionism is a form of nationalism/imperialism and Marxists are fighting against imperialism etc.

Anyway, the democratic leftist parties in Germany tend to be very "anti-anti-Semitic", partly because it´s seen as political correct to be against anti-Semitism (has also something to do with the Holocaust etc.). And I´ve met conservatives who complained that "political correctness" has gone too far these days and that it has to be possible to "criticize" the jews.

The last anti-Semitic scandal we had here was then a Member of Parliament of the conservative CDU indirectly called the jews a "race of perpetrators" (maybe someone heard of it). After some time of bitter political debate within and without the party this MP was expelled from his party.

And there was Möllem as well...I find it funny that the liberal parties in Germany and Austria have such strong anti-semitic traditions, whereas the Swedish liberals are the exact opposite.

[Gustaf]

And there was Möllem as well...I find it funny that the liberal parties in Germany and Austria have such strong anti-semitic traditions, whereas the Swedish liberals are the exact opposite.

Well, of course, there are also counterexamples, like veteran FDP politician Hildegard Hamm-Brücher (whose grandmother was a jew, who committed suicide to prevent her transportation to a concentration camp) who left the party as protest against Möllemann. He was not so undisputed within his party.

Oh, I know I wasn't implying that the party as a whole was anti-semitic, far from it. Only that I think most anti-semites and ex-Nazis joined the liberals after the war, whereas the Christian Democrats were generally more on the good side, as the social democrats. Look at the 'liberal party' in Austria, they've gone completely overboard....

[Gustaf]

Oh, I know I wasn't implying that the party as a whole was anti-semitic, far from it. Only that I think most anti-semites and ex-Nazis joined the liberals after the war, whereas the Christian Democrats were generally more on the good side, as the social democrats. Look at the 'liberal party' in Austria, they've gone completely overboard....

And I didn´t want to imply that you are implying that the FDP is as a whole anti-Semitic neither.

It´s true that right after the war the FDP served as a new political home for former Nazi officials and SS officers etc. in some parts of the country, especially towards the north (political parties were much more decentralized back then, with a lot regional differences). But I doubt there is a connection between the situation then and the "Möllemann affair". The former Nazi officials I mentioned were long dead, when Möllemann started his populist campaign. I think he was more inspired by the success of Jörg Haider and Austria´s FPÖ. And the liberals in Austria always had a more "nationalist" stance, while in Germany there was also a social-liberal tradition (Hildegard Hamm-Brücher, for example).

(I hope the American users here know about the differences between the American and the European meaning of the term "liberal". I once created a lot of confusion in another American-based forum when I started to talk about "liberals" in Europe there. )

OK, I think you know more about the FDP than I do.

And on liberalism, tell me about it! We've had our fair share of controversy regarding that here as well...