Israel and Palestine

[MarkDel]

I notice no one here supports it becoming entirely Palestine, or even split 50/50.

JFK,

The only question for me was whether or not I advocated the eradication of all Palestinians. But since I'm not that amoral, I voted for Israel being the sole state. However, I think Israel needs to do what it's in its best interests, and that may mean a two-state solution in the current political environment where the rest of the world, other than the U.S., seems to be strongly pro-Palestinian.

[MarkDel]

There's something I find EXTREMELY confusing in this thread. On numerous occasions, I have praised both JFK and Gustaf because they seem to have so much knowledge relative to other young people. But now I have a serious question for both Gustaf and JFK...

How is it you guys know so much about the United States and European history, but absolutely nothing about Israeli/Palestininan history...as Dunn pointed out in a polite fashion earlier in this thread?

[MarkDel]

are you sure it wasn't offered? I know they offered Gaza and the West Bank at one point, my friend said that they offered 45% of Israel before.

I know for a fact they offered all the land they conquered in 48 during the war with surrounding Arab nations

My friend you got all mix up.
No one will offer more then a return to 1949-1967 lines. the Arab nations invaded Israel, not an inch was taken from them until farther attacks in 56' 67' 73' (and most of it givem back). the 67' lines are the borders the un aprove, the question is the future of the west bank and Gaza. O/c many palestians want to destroy Israel

The UN proposed splitting it ISralis 55%, Palestinians 45% in the late 30s, but the Palestinians refused at htat time.

Gustaf,

I'm sorry if I came across as harsh, I probably should have said "know so much less" than "know nothing at all"

Your post above is an example of what I meant. I was just curious because you do seem to know so much about other issues. No disrespect at all intended.

[MarkDel]

markdel man, what have we been so wrong about?

JFK,

I'm sorry, I did NOT mean it to be insulting. For example, you said Barak instead of Rabin, and Dunn had to correct you guys about the original UN partition...stuff like that.

I should have said you guys seem to know "less" about this issue than other issues...I'm sorry.

But there was a point I was getting at..one which I will now keep to myself.

[MarkDel]

There's something I find EXTREMELY confusing in this thread. On numerous occasions, I have praised both JFK and Gustaf because they seem to have so much knowledge relative to other young people. But now I have a serious question for both Gustaf and JFK...

How is it you guys know so much about the United States and European history, but absolutely nothing about Israeli/Palestininan history...as Dunn pointed out in a polite fashion earlier in this thread?

I will tell you . First they do know a lot for young people , second the european and some american news organization are bias and don't give the historical facts

Dunn, to be quite honest, your answer here is the one I was looking for. That was the point I was trying to make without really saying it...I wanted them to come to the conclusion themselves, since they are such smart young men. But I fear all I have done is stir up a hornet's nest that I did not intend to stir up!!! I actually have extremely high opinions of both of them and have said so in previous threads.

[MarkDel]

no, please do tell , I was confused on the issue.

JFK,

I just read an older post by Dunn, he seems to have made my point for me...

[MarkDel]

There's something I find EXTREMELY confusing in this thread. On numerous occasions, I have praised both JFK and Gustaf because they seem to have so much knowledge relative to other young people. But now I have a serious question for both Gustaf and JFK...

How is it you guys know so much about the United States and European history, but absolutely nothing about Israeli/Palestininan history...as Dunn pointed out in a polite fashion earlier in this thread?

I will tell you . First they do know a lot for young people , second the european and some american news organization are bias and don't give the historical facts

Dunn, to be quite honest, your answer here is the one I was looking for. That was the point I was trying to make without really saying it...I wanted them to come to the conclusion themselves, since they are such smart young men. But I fear all I have done is stir up a hornet's nest that I did not intend to stir up!!! I actually have extremely high opinions of both of them and have said so in previous threads.

I thing you took it harder then they did....
These are fine young men and it's ok to be mistaken, In hebrew there is saying "not the shy one learns"

Dunn,

Well said.

[MarkDel]

I know the Palestinian tactics have been pretty horrendous, they attacked Israel on Yom Kippur (sp?), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar which is pretty bad. I am not quite sure what you are implying?

JFK,

What I was trying to "draw out" was that any lack of knowledge on the part of you and/or Gustaf was strictly a result of the anti-Israel bias that you no doubt were subjected to in your European educations...my intent was to absolve you of your lack of historical accuracy and blame the left wing anti-semites who dominate European media and/or classrooms.

[MarkDel]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

[MarkDel]

my school stopped teaching the Arab-Israeli conflict like 10 years ago I think it was, they said they "didn't think it would be relevant in the news or have much coverage", man were they wrong.

JFK,

And you go to a nice private school, right? I'll bet that's not the real reason they stopped teaching about the Arab/Israeli conflict.

[MarkDel]

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

[MarkDel]

Dunn,

Boy ain't that the truth...

[MarkDel]

Israel has every right to exist, it is historically their land, Israel has more right to exist than some countries.

JFK,

Yep, but the fact that their right to existence is even DISCUSSED is an example of what Dunn and I are talking about.

[MarkDel]

I know, I am saying, that it has just as much right as other countries to exist, Palestine were given the chance and turned it down, despite the offer being generous.

You're right. Arafat walked away from the best deal they would EVER get. Now if there's any justice, Likud will continue to dominate Israeli elections and the Palestinians will see how they enjoy Bebe Netanyahu calling the shots again.

[MarkDel]

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

I am very curious to hear about how you know what the Swedish press wrote about, since I didn't know you knew Swedish...I didn't read anything about 'Zionist hatred' in 3 of the 5 existing national newspapers my family gets everyday...and the art exhibit did not have a direct link to the goverment, it was in a museum, the ambassador was invited to a conference.

Gustaf,

To be perfectly honest, I read US and British accounts of what took place, and they "paraphrased" some of the reporting from Sweden. Wasn't the exhibit held at a government sponsored museum and wasn't the Israeli Ambassador there per an invite?

[MarkDel]

Dunn,

Great points.

[MarkDel]

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

Most anti-semitism in Europe comes from Muslim immgrants though...but there's more in CONTINENTAL Europe, MarkDel hardly exists among Swedes, I'm pretty sure.

Gustaf,

Well...I hope you're right...

[MarkDel]

Dunn,

Yes, they rationalize the terror by calling people "insurgents" instead of terrorists...as just one example.