Israel and Palestine

[Gustaf]

I know the Palestinian tactics have been pretty horrendous, they attacked Israel on Yom Kippur (sp?), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar which is pretty bad. I am not quite sure what you are implying?

JFK,

What I was trying to "draw out" was that any lack of knowledge on the part of you and/or Gustaf was strictly a result of the anti-Israel bias that you now doubt were subjected to in your European educations...my intent was to absolve you of your lack of historical accuracy and blame the left wing anti-semites who dominate European media and/or classrooms.

MarkDel,

I did not take it that badly...but I see that I made one mistake...note though that I'm still not convinced that the division plan was not first put forward by the British in 1937... Not contradicting the UN plan coming up in 1947, mind you...

On the reason, I don't see our posts indicating that we have recieved anti-Israel info? I think the sad case is rather taht history has been a low prioerity in Sweden for a long, long time and we don't learn much about smaller countries like Israel.

[dunn]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

you are doing alright JFK
tell your fiend it is the land oh the jews since the bible, we are willing to split it, (most of ) the arabs wants us in the sea

[MarkDel]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

[JohnFKennedy]

my school stopped teaching the Arab-Israeli conflict like 10 years ago I think it was, they said they "didn't think it would be relevant in the news or have much coverage", man were they wrong.

[MarkDel]

my school stopped teaching the Arab-Israeli conflict like 10 years ago I think it was, they said they "didn't think it would be relevant in the news or have much coverage", man were they wrong.

JFK,

And you go to a nice private school, right? I'll bet that's not the real reason they stopped teaching about the Arab/Israeli conflict.

[JohnFKennedy]

I go to a private school yes, but I think that is probably the real reason, my teacher who was there at the time seems very keen to teach it and thinks it is a real shame.

I knew Palestine was never a country actually, just the region, it encompassed Jordan as well didn't it?

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

[dunn]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

[JohnFKennedy]

there are a lot of anti-Israel people here, and invariably anti-Semites.

I was rather offended by one girl at my school who criticised my Jewish friend and I for not singing in Chapel which our school makes us go to, it is a Christian ceremony so we did not sing and just stood there making a point of our objection and she was like what's the big deal it is the same God, so what? Which some of you may agree with, but I think it is the principle of the thing.

[dunn]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

[MarkDel]

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

[dunn]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

[MarkDel]

Dunn,

Boy ain't that the truth...

[dunn]

Dunn,

Boy ain't that the truth...

Thank you MarkDel

[JohnFKennedy]

Israel has every right to exist, it is historically their land, Israel has more right to exist than some countries.

[MarkDel]

Israel has every right to exist, it is historically their land, Israel has more right to exist than some countries.

JFK,

Yep, but the fact that their right to existence is even DISCUSSED is an example of what Dunn and I are talking about.

[JohnFKennedy]

I know, I am saying, that it has just as much right as other countries to exist, Palestine were given the chance and turned it down, despite the offer being generous.

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

I am very curious to hear about how you know what the Swedish press wrote about, since I didn't know you knew Swedish...I didn't read anything about 'Zionist hatred' in 3 of the 5 existing national newspapers my family gets everyday...and the art exhibit did not have a direct link to the goverment, it was in a museum, the ambassador was invited to a conference.

[MarkDel]

I know, I am saying, that it has just as much right as other countries to exist, Palestine were given the chance and turned it down, despite the offer being generous.

You're right. Arafat walked away from the best deal they would EVER get. Now if there's any justice, Likud will continue to dominate Israeli elections and the Palestinians will see how they enjoy Bebe Netanyahu calling the shots again.

[dunn]

JFK
You are brought up in a good area, with good education and you are a great guy. It's just that the world - including western Europe - is very diffrent from what you imagin (about this issue I mean)

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

[JohnFKennedy]

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

[MarkDel]

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

I am very curious to hear about how you know what the Swedish press wrote about, since I didn't know you knew Swedish...I didn't read anything about 'Zionist hatred' in 3 of the 5 existing national newspapers my family gets everyday...and the art exhibit did not have a direct link to the goverment, it was in a museum, the ambassador was invited to a conference.

Gustaf,

To be perfectly honest, I read US and British accounts of what took place, and they "paraphrased" some of the reporting from Sweden. Wasn't the exhibit held at a government sponsored museum and wasn't the Israeli Ambassador there per an invite?