Israel and Palestine

[Middle-aged Europe]

And there was Möllem as well...I find it funny that the liberal parties in Germany and Austria have such strong anti-semitic traditions, whereas the Swedish liberals are the exact opposite.

Well, of course, there are also counterexamples, like veteran FDP politician Hildegard Hamm-Brücher (whose grandmother was a jew, who committed suicide to prevent her transportation to a concentration camp) who left the party as protest against Möllemann. He was not so undisputed within his party.

[Gustaf]

And there was Möllem as well...I find it funny that the liberal parties in Germany and Austria have such strong anti-semitic traditions, whereas the Swedish liberals are the exact opposite.

Well, of course, there are also counterexamples, like veteran FDP politician Hildegard Hamm-Brücher (whose grandmother was a jew, who committed suicide to prevent her transportation to a concentration camp) who left the party as protest against Möllemann. He was not so undisputed within his party.

Oh, I know I wasn't implying that the party as a whole was anti-semitic, far from it. Only that I think most anti-semites and ex-Nazis joined the liberals after the war, whereas the Christian Democrats were generally more on the good side, as the social democrats. Look at the 'liberal party' in Austria, they've gone completely overboard....

[Middle-aged Europe]

Oh, I know I wasn't implying that the party as a whole was anti-semitic, far from it. Only that I think most anti-semites and ex-Nazis joined the liberals after the war, whereas the Christian Democrats were generally more on the good side, as the social democrats. Look at the 'liberal party' in Austria, they've gone completely overboard....

And I didn´t want to imply that you are implying that the FDP is as a whole anti-Semitic neither.

It´s true that right after the war the FDP served as a new political home for former Nazi officials and SS officers etc. in some parts of the country, especially towards the north (political parties were much more decentralized back then, with a lot regional differences). But I doubt there is a connection between the situation then and the "Möllemann affair". The former Nazi officials I mentioned were long dead, when Möllemann started his populist campaign. I think he was more inspired by the success of Jörg Haider and Austria´s FPÖ. And the liberals in Austria always had a more "nationalist" stance, while in Germany there was also a social-liberal tradition (Hildegard Hamm-Brücher, for example).

(I hope the American users here know about the differences between the American and the European meaning of the term "liberal". I once created a lot of confusion in another American-based forum when I started to talk about "liberals" in Europe there. )

[Gustaf]

Oh, I know I wasn't implying that the party as a whole was anti-semitic, far from it. Only that I think most anti-semites and ex-Nazis joined the liberals after the war, whereas the Christian Democrats were generally more on the good side, as the social democrats. Look at the 'liberal party' in Austria, they've gone completely overboard....

And I didn´t want to imply that you are implying that the FDP is as a whole anti-Semitic neither.

It´s true that right after the war the FDP served as a new political home for former Nazi officials and SS officers etc. in some parts of the country, especially towards the north (political parties were much more decentralized back then, with a lot regional differences). But I doubt there is a connection between the situation then and the "Möllemann affair". The former Nazi officials I mentioned were long dead, when Möllemann started his populist campaign. I think he was more inspired by the success of Jörg Haider and Austria´s FPÖ. And the liberals in Austria always had a more "nationalist" stance, while in Germany there was also a social-liberal tradition (Hildegard Hamm-Brücher, for example).

(I hope the American users here know about the differences between the American and the European meaning of the term "liberal". I once created a lot of confusion in another American-based forum when I started to talk about "liberals" in Europe there. )

OK, I think you know more about the FDP than I do.

And on liberalism, tell me about it! We've had our fair share of controversy regarding that here as well...

[Middle-aged Europe]

OK, I think you know more about the FDP than I do.

And on liberalism, tell me about it! We've had our fair share of controversy regarding that here as well...

Well, you know what I mean... that the European "liberal" has more the meaning of the American "libertarian" than the American "liberal".

[Gustaf]

OK, I think you know more about the FDP than I do.

And on liberalism, tell me about it! We've had our fair share of controversy regarding that here as well...

Well, you know what I mean... that the European "liberal" has more the meaning of the American "libertarian" than the American "liberal".

Yes, I know that.

[Middle-aged Europe]

OK, I think you know more about the FDP than I do.

And on liberalism, tell me about it! We've had our fair share of controversy regarding that here as well...

Well, you know what I mean... that the European "liberal" has more the meaning of the American "libertarian" than the American "liberal".

Yes, I know that.

Good.

[Beefalow and the Consumer]

The Beef Peace Plan:

1. Two states.
2. Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.
3. Old Jerusalem under Israeli control.
4. No right of return.
5. Israel evacuates all settlements.
6. Palestinian citizens granted right of passage between the West Bank and Gaza, and access to Old Jerusalem, but Israel may suspend that right if terrorist acts continue.

[dunn]

The Beef Peace Plan:

1. Two states.
2. Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.
3. Old Jerusalem under Israeli control.
4. No right of return.
5. Israel evacuates all settlements.
6. Palestinian citizens granted right of passage between the West Bank and Gaza, and access to Old Jerusalem, but Israel may suspend that right if terrorist acts continue.

this is basiclly Clinton's plan that Barakaccepted and Arafat didn't and started a war

[Beefalow and the Consumer]

The Beef Peace Plan:

1. Two states.
2. Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.
3. Old Jerusalem under Israeli control.
4. No right of return.
5. Israel evacuates all settlements.
6. Palestinian citizens granted right of passage between the West Bank and Gaza, and access to Old Jerusalem, but Israel may suspend that right if terrorist acts continue.

this is basiclly Clinton's plan that Barak accepted and Arafat didn't and started a war

Yep.  But just because Arafat walked out on it doesn't mean it's not a good plan.  We all know Arafat isn't interested in peace.  Once Arafat is gone, and the Palestinian leadership shifts from a policy of annihilation to a policy of peace, then they'll be able to work things out.  The only question is how many supermarkets and buses get blown to bits before that happens .

[dunn]

The Beef Peace Plan:

1. Two states.
2. Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.
3. Old Jerusalem under Israeli control.
4. No right of return.
5. Israel evacuates all settlements.
6. Palestinian citizens granted right of passage between the West Bank and Gaza, and access to Old Jerusalem, but Israel may suspend that right if terrorist acts continue.

this is basiclly Clinton's plan that Barak accepted and Arafat didn't and started a war

Yep.  But just because Arafat walked out on it doesn't mean it's not a good plan.  We all know Arafat isn't interested in peace.  Once Arafat is gone, and the Palestinian leadership shifts from a policy of annihilation to a policy of peace, then they'll be able to work things out.  The only question is how many supermarkets and buses get blown to bits before that happens .

I agree but
1. the fact that you know it does not mean the world does
2. Palestinian leadership shifts from a policy of annihilation to a policy of peace is something we expect for 80 years. Some of us  thought it came in the 90's and boy, were they wrong

[tigerfan04]

I haven't studied the subject much, so could someone please tell me why the Israelis think the land is theirs.  After the Romans defeated them in AD 70, they were dispersed throughout the empire.  After so many years of being absent, why do they think they still have a claim on the land?

[JohnFKennedy]

I haven't studied the subject much, so could someone please tell me why the Israelis think the land is theirs.  After the Romans defeated them in AD 70, they were dispersed throughout the empire.  After so many years of being absent, why do they think they still have a claim on the land?

It is their homeland. Dunn is probably more well versed, he is Israeli.  Why do the Palestinians have a claim? Palestine has NEVER been a country, besides as I have said the REGION known as Palestine is mainly in Jordan.

[tigerfan04]

True, Palesitne was never a country.  The Hebrews, however, were not native to Palestine, they conquered it.  In my opinion, even if they previously had a claim on the land, they were absent for about 2000 years, and other people had moved in.  

[bejkuy]

Is peace possible in palestine given the intense hatred and resentment.

I have spoken with Jews and Moslems on both sides of the issue.

While being reasonable and moderate on other issues, when the topic of Palestine comes up- whatch out!

Instant grinding of the teeth.  Otherwise reasonable people get instantly fired up.

 How can they be at peace in the same area?

Is there really any peace plan that could work?

[dunn]

True, Palesitne was never a country.  The Hebrews, however, were not native to Palestine, they conquered it.  In my opinion, even if they previously had a claim on the land, they were absent for about 2000 years, and other people had moved in.  

The jews were force out and wanted to come back ever since. b/c this is their home, in every corner of the globe they prayed for jerusalem (who is mentioned in the OT 728 times. 0 in the Kor'an). Their were jews in this country during the entire history. true sometimes not many' but their were very few arabs as well (and they came in the last few centuries). and by your logic if someone throw you out of your house and you come after say 20 years back and discover another person saw it enpty and live there for the last 2 years, does that mean it not your house?

[bgwah]

Weren't there people in "Israel" before the Jews originally moved in?

And WHO voted for "Extermination of Palestinians," they are sick bastards.

And is Israel REALLY building that wall around Palestine which will cut the Palestinians off from a bunch of their land?

[JohnFKennedy]

Palestine is NOT A COUNTRY!!!!!

Israel are building a wall around ISRAEL for DEFENCE!!! It is to stop suicide bomber attacks and it is very effective, in the one place it has already been constructed, it stopped ALL suicide bomber attempts.

[Gustaf]

Weren't there people in "Israel" before the Jews originally moved in?

And WHO voted for "Extermination of Palestinians," they are sick bastards.

And is Israel REALLY building that wall around Palestine which will cut the Palestinians off from a bunch of their land?

Ehhh....who's talking...

[dunn]

Weren't there people in "Israel" before the Jews originally moved in?

And WHO voted for "Extermination of Palestinians," they are sick bastards.

And is Israel REALLY building that wall around Palestine which will cut the Palestinians off from a bunch of their land?

Ehhh....who's talking...

I didn't bother Gus, don't bother either

[Gustaf]

Weren't there people in "Israel" before the Jews originally moved in?

And WHO voted for "Extermination of Palestinians," they are sick bastards.

And is Israel REALLY building that wall around Palestine which will cut the Palestinians off from a bunch of their land?

Ehhh....who's talking...

I didn't bother Gus, don't bother either

OK.

[ShapeShifter]

Israel Blows Up Hamas Leader's Car

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosion&cid=540&ncid=716

Another one bites the dust.

[The Dowager Mod]

Israel Blows Up Hamas Leader's Car

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosion&cid=540&ncid=716

Another one bites the dust.

and another 100 or so angry palestinians take his place.

[ShapeShifter]

Israel Blows Up Hamas Leader's Car

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosion&cid=540&ncid=716

Another one bites the dust.

and another 100 or so angry palestinians take his place.

yup

by the way, I just love your signature quote.

[JohnFKennedy]

He was a particularly nasty guy, responsible for the deaths of a lot of Jews and one of the major blockades for peace.

Although it would be nicer if they were captured and executed, this is not as easy and so I support Israel's actions.