What is your annual income and party affiliation?

[dead0man]

Dead's bitterness about college is a common theme in his posts. Though I don't really disagree that some people spend 4 years getting a quite obviously useless degree and then whine about it.

He ignored the fact that as many Republicans and Indies make under 8.5k in proportion to tal voters in the poll.

Yeah, those people (assuming they have no valid excuses) are losers as well if they are 25 and making less than 8.5k a year.

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Thankfully I never said that it was.

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If it was an Ivy school it would be a good idea?

[Franzl]

And that's primarily (along with the argument that worthwhile degrees get you more money) why I think we should charge a certain sum for tuition. If you're getting a good degree, it more than pays for itself, if you're getting a worthless liberal arts degree...you should at least be paying something for the privilege. At least in the 500 to...let's say...2000€ range. U.S. tuition rates are absurd and certainly aren't worth it from my perspective.

[dead0man]

link

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[opebo]

Deadman, none of that would be a problem if university education were free, as it should be.  The only problem is that individuals are being stuck with debts for it.

[Antonio the Sixth]

$83,600-174,400 I guess.

[Sbane]

I don't think college is worthless if you get the right degree. A lot of liberal arts degrees are worthless unless you intend to stay in academia, and I suspect the competition is high there. If you intend on going on to law school, or the medical professions, a liberal arts degree is a good idea as well. Of course you still need to take half the courses needed to get a Biology degree in order to get into those professional schools. But it can help in GPA inflation, and helps you show them you are well rounded. If you expect to get handed a job after graduating as a Poly sci or History major..... And if you get a graduate degree in these majors taking on more loans...

I like Franzl's idea. Make college cheaper, or give more subsidies, to those who study the sciences. This way it gives an incentive to students to study the right majors.

[Franzl]

Deadman, none of that would be a problem if university education were free, as it should be.  The only problem is that individuals are being stuck with debts for it.

The situation described by Deadman isn't really any different in countries with free (or near free) education such as Germany.

There's still loads of people going after worthless degrees. It's just subsidized by the taxpayers to a much greater extent. As said, people that want to study sociology...be my guest....but pay a bit towards your own "education".

[Sbane]

Deadman, none of that would be a problem if university education were free, as it should be.  The only problem is that individuals are being stuck with debts for it.

The situation described by Deadman isn't really any different in countries with free (or near free) education such as Germany.

There's still loads of people going after worthless degrees. It's just subsidized by the taxpayers to a much greater extent. As said, people that want to study sociology...be my guest....but pay a bit towards your own "education".

Yeah, I was about to ask how it is in Germany. I agree that those who want to study those sorts of degrees should pay a bit. On the other hand, creating a workforce well educated in the sciences and economics/management without strangling them with student loans is a good idea.

[Torie]

Getting a broad liberal arts education in college was the best thing I ever did.  It enriched my life, and yes, made me a better lawyer. To try to separate the two is a big mistake. Yes, it helped that daddy paid for it all. But if daddy can pay, going to college to get a life and learn about the world, and then going to trade school (actually I then went to two different trade schools, but I digress), to get your ticket to making a living, is clearly the way to go in my view.

Those college pre med types who spend their time in the basement with flash cards memorizing the composition of organic molecules with all those H's, O's and C's are a sad case indeed. What a waste!  Some of these MD's end up as rather uneducated technicians, and I think that impairs their performance levels, based on my experience with the breed. Some of them in fact just can't think very logically. Kind of frightening really.

[Franzl]

Deadman, none of that would be a problem if university education were free, as it should be.  The only problem is that individuals are being stuck with debts for it.

The situation described by Deadman isn't really any different in countries with free (or near free) education such as Germany.

There's still loads of people going after worthless degrees. It's just subsidized by the taxpayers to a much greater extent. As said, people that want to study sociology...be my guest....but pay a bit towards your own "education".

Yeah, I was about to ask how it is in Germany. I agree that those who want to study those sorts of degrees should pay a bit. On the other hand, creating a workforce well educated in the sciences and economics/management without strangling them with student loans is a good idea.

That said, we all pay 542€ each semester in Bavaria. I study statistics and have to pay as well. But I think taking a little money from everyone is better than having it entirely free.

Ideally, we could put in different tuition charges depending on what you want to study....but it's not really easy to do politically, I imagine

[Sbane]

Getting a broad liberal arts education in college was the best thing I ever did.  It enriched my life, and yes, made me a better lawyer. To try to separate the two is a big mistake. Yes, it helped that daddy paid for it all. But if daddy can pay, going to college to get a life and learn about the world, and then going to trade school (actually I then went to two different trade schools, but I digress), to get your ticket to making a living, is clearly the way to go in my view.

Indeed, nothing wrong with getting a liberal arts education and going to law school, MBA programs or even the health professions. But it's pretty tough out there if you don't get into these programs.

[Torie]

Getting a broad liberal arts education in college was the best thing I ever did.  It enriched my life, and yes, made me a better lawyer. To try to separate the two is a big mistake. Yes, it helped that daddy paid for it all. But if daddy can pay, going to college to get a life and learn about the world, and then going to trade school (actually I then went to two different trade schools, but I digress), to get your ticket to making a living, is clearly the way to go in my view.

Indeed, nothing wrong with getting a liberal arts education and going to law school, MBA programs or even the health professions. But it's pretty tough out there if you don't get into these programs.

Maybe, but if you can think logically, and have excellent writing and reading comprehension skills, in the end I suspect that you will do well. The problem is that often just doesn't happen (mastering that skill set). But then, lots of kids are in college who just shouldn't be there at all.

[Verily]

Getting a broad liberal arts education in college was the best thing I ever did.  It enriched my life, and yes, made me a better lawyer. To try to separate the two is a big mistake. Yes, it helped that daddy paid for it all. But if daddy can pay, going to college to get a life and learn about the world, and then going to trade school (actually I then went to two different trade schools, but I digress), to get your ticket to making a living, is clearly the way to go in my view.

Indeed, nothing wrong with getting a liberal arts education and going to law school, MBA programs or even the health professions. But it's pretty tough out there if you don't get into these programs.

Maybe, but if you can think logically, and have excellent writing and reading comprehension skills, in the end I suspect that you will do well. The problem is that often just doesn't happen (mastering that skill set). But then, lots of kids are in college who just shouldn't be there at all.

I'm sorry, Torie, but you have no insight at all into what a liberal arts education is good for these days, and your posts reflect the naivete of someone who went to college back when it really was a golden ticket. It is frankly insulting for you to be opining on the subject. In those days, a tiny proportion of the population, including a tiny proportion of the best and brightest, were going to college, yet the job opportunities available to college graduates were basically the same.

That's just not true now. If you don't graduate with a highly specialized degree or go on to graduate school it doesn't matter how smart you are, how resourceful you are. You're not getting a job that will put you into the middle class (that you couldn't have gotten without college, like manager at a retail outlet or something). Frankly, those jobs just don't exist these days for college graduates. Jobs that thirty years ago went to new college graduates are all still getting shuttled around between those same people who graduated twenty or thirty years ago. No one hires without experience, and there's no way to get experience because the market for liberal arts majors is saturated. Additionally, you graduate with far, far more debt than any college graduates had in your day.

(I say this as someone who has been successful in his post-liberal arts career, but only because I went on to further schooling.)

[dead0man]

But then, lots of kids are in college who just shouldn't be there at all.

Indeed that is the problem right there.  It's considered by many to be a negative to go to trade school to be an HVAC guy (or any of the long list of other, decent paying and often high demand jobs one can learn at Community College or a trade school), it certainly was by my high school counselors and for the most part, my peers and elders too.  Not everybody wants to go to State U or William and Perry's Snob School for Jerks and there is nothing wrong with being a nurse or a plumber (I'm not suggesting you are saying that).  There are WAY more people getting degrees than we need, thus making them worth less (not worthless, but close).  From my last link

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And, AFAIK, we're still encouraging our youth "to go to college, it doesn't matter what for, just get the diploma"......but it does matter.  It matters now more than ever before.

[Edu]

My annual income is about 7.900 US$ (or about 33.000 Pesos) which is a bit more than the minimmun wage (it's approximately 545 dollars per month against about 659 dollard I make).

[Torie]

I am not that old Verily. Lots of folks went to college in my day. Anyway, I certainly hope that you post is hyperbolically pessimistic. It's damn depressing!  

[Franzl]

My annual income is about 7.900 US$ (or about 33.000 Pesos) which is a bit more than the minimmun wage (it's approximately 545 dollars per month against about 659 dollard I make).

Not meant negatively, but is it possible to live reasonably well in Argentina with that amount?

[Paul Kemp]

Around $35g/D-leaning I.

[opebo]

Maybe, but if you can think logically, and have excellent writing and reading comprehension skills, in the end I suspect that you will do well. The problem is that often just doesn't happen (mastering that skill set).

I think I have precisely that 'skill set' (though I despise that phrase), and I'm afraid if I were to return home nothing but homelessness would await.

[LastVoter]

Dead's bitterness about college is a common theme in his posts. Though I don't really disagree that some people spend 4 years getting a quite obviously useless degree and then whine about it.

He ignored the fact that as many Republicans and Indies make under 8.5k in proportion to tal voters in the poll.

Yeah, those people (assuming they have no valid excuses) are losers as well if they are 25 and making less than 8.5k a year.

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Thankfully I never said that it was.

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If it was an Ivy school it would be a good idea?

It would be only because you get to meet people with money and can suck their dick for money for rest of your life.

[Roemerista]

In 2009 the average starting salary of college grads was $49,307.
The average for liberal arts was $36,175.
During their first year of employment, high school graduates average was $31,370 in 2009.

A liberal arts college, just as any other college can return the value many times over if the student knows why they are going there. The vast network that you are immeditely tapped into, is something you won't have again the rest of your life. However, you need to know this, and you need to know what to do with it.

The problem, as it has been stated, is that there are too many folks going without knowing why they are there. It boggles the mind that there are kids out there at 40,000 a year schools, who just wander through it and simply graduating with what they choice in their second year as their "major." A major, which, is certainly not something they will want to do for a living. All the while running up a huge debt. The total economic cost of this is staggering. College is an investment and a consumption good, but please don't jump into it just because you want the "college experience." If you must go, go to a public uni or CC at first. Get the general "ed" courses out of the way, find out what you want to do, and get in a position to minimize your post-grad debt.

I don't mean to say "don't study the liberal arts," I wouldn't trade my History degree in, but you can't just jump straight into the pool.

[Gustaf]

I'd say I get about 180 000 SEK a year (although I have no "normal" year) which would be about $25 000.

I don't pay taxes on about half of it though so it is a pretty good deal.

[Gustaf]

My annual income is about 7.900 US$ (or about 33.000 Pesos) which is a bit more than the minimmun wage (it's approximately 545 dollars per month against about 659 dollard I make).

Not meant negatively, but is it possible to live reasonably well in Argentina with that amount?

I would guess so. I think it might be possible to survive on that even in Sweden (not in Stockholm and it wouldn't be pleasant, but still) and this is one of the world's most expensive countries.

[opebo]

My annual income is about 7.900 US$ (or about 33.000 Pesos) which is a bit more than the minimmun wage (it's approximately 545 dollars per month against about 659 dollard I make).

Not meant negatively, but is it possible to live reasonably well in Argentina with that amount?

I would guess so. I think it might be possible to survive on that even in Sweden (not in Stockholm and it wouldn't be pleasant, but still) and this is one of the world's most expensive countries.

Seriously?  $545/month wouldn't even cover rent in the USA.  Or maybe if you were lucky you would have about $45 left over after rent for all food, electricity, etc.  Even if you had a roomate you'd still only have about $200/month for food, and nothing for transportation.  Truly impossible.

I spend about $2,000/month here, even sans hobby (as in, no life at all), it wold be at least $1,000, and I live very, very badly.

[Gustaf]

My annual income is about 7.900 US$ (or about 33.000 Pesos) which is a bit more than the minimmun wage (it's approximately 545 dollars per month against about 659 dollard I make).

Not meant negatively, but is it possible to live reasonably well in Argentina with that amount?

I would guess so. I think it might be possible to survive on that even in Sweden (not in Stockholm and it wouldn't be pleasant, but still) and this is one of the world's most expensive countries.

Seriously?  $545/month wouldn't even cover rent in the USA.  Or maybe if you were lucky you would have about $45 left over after rent for all food, electricity, etc.  Even if you had a roomate you'd still only have about $200/month for food, and nothing for transportation.  Truly impossible.

I spend about $2,000/month here, even sans hobby (as in, no life at all), it wold be at least $1,000, and I live very, very badly.

Well, you live the life of the rich and priveleged. That is of course not possible on that money.

As I recall the poor retirees in Sweden get something like 5000 SEK a month which is about $700. A student gets about 7000 SEK or $1000. It's not much of course. But in Stockholm you can find rent for maybe 3000 SEK and probably survive on food for something like 1000 SEK a month.