Were the 1990's the peak of Western Civilization?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

That's an interesting argument.

He's using the uniquely American definition of the term.

[republicanism]

That's an interesting argument.

He's using the uniquely American definition of the term.

The uniquely American definition of the "middle class" ? Or of the term "Western Civilization"?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

That's an interesting argument.

He's using the uniquely American definition of the term.

The uniquely American definition of the "middle class" ? Or of the term "Western Civilization"?

Haha, good one

I meant the former, but the latter works as well.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Imagine skateboarding to Circuit City, purchasing Nevermind, and coming home to enjoy an ice cold Crystal Pepsi. Twenty years ago on this exact day. You just can't beat that. It's impossible.

More likely, and of course preferable, is that it'd be an independent record store, not a Circuit City.

Luckily Minneapolis still has quite a few of those. Of course now they make most of their money selling vinyl represses of albums everyone already owns/has downloaded (including Nevermind) for $25-30.

[republicanism]

I meant the former, but the latter works as well.

But even with the strange American definition of middle class taken into account, how could one argue that the American middle class was destroyed in the late 60s/early 70s? I don't get that.

Unless you talk about an exclusively white middle class...

[opebo]

even with the strange American definition of middle class taken into account, how could one argue that the American middle class was destroyed in the late 60s/early 70s? I don't get that.

Unless you talk about an exclusively white middle class...

No, both blacks and working-class whites have seen a plummeting of their incomes since the 1973 peak, black 'middle class' (in the american sense) perhaps even more so than the whites.  But both are in abject desperation.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

In case 'Western' would mean 'American', which was the case but on this epoch Europe still accepted this domination or just thought, or liked to think, that the relationship was balanced, well, the personality of the guy in the White House could make believe it was, and even the Western country that used to be the most resisting to it, mine, was in the same pace, without much enthusiasm though, but still. And in case 'peak' would mean 'cultural domination', or even downright 'domination', then yeah, as I used to say, it clearly was.

If you analyze social welfare, then no, it clearly wasn't.

If you analyze the quality of the culture of this epoch, hmm, it's subjective, it's up to you to qualify World Music, New Age, universal charity business, Hollywood domination, American pop domination, dance music, and each other things that made this decade, to judge them altogether if you think it's legitimate or one by one. Overall I'd say that the model that the Western (not saying Americans to be nice with Europeans, and especially non-Anglo Europeans, because Anglos participated more actively to the building of this culture, other European trends of culture, Latin, Germanic, etc, more or less followed the way those who dominated proposed) culture of the 90s wanted to be was a kind of universal softness, a universal reconciliation between people of the world, and an attempt to come back to spirituality and charity to balance the 80s which were seen as an over-dose of money and of individualism.

Well, it was America's domination peak, at all levels. Hope they enjoyed.

[republicanism]

No, both blacks and working-class whites have seen a plummeting of their incomes since the 1973 peak, black 'middle class' (in the american sense) perhaps even more so than the whites.  But both are in abject desperation.

I have to admit I don't  know the statistics for America, but in Germany the decline in real incomes didn't start before 1980, and didn't start getting really severe since 1990.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

Uh, no.

[minionofmidas]

I meant the former, but the latter works as well.

But even with the strange American definition of middle class taken into account, how could one argue that the American middle class was destroyed in the late 60s/early 70s? I don't get that.

Unless you talk about an exclusively white middle class...

The seeds were sown then.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Honestly, I'm not sure how you can justify using a post-World War I date for this.

This response is the most sensible.

As for what the thread is aiming for, the answer is clearly not the 90s for the reasons Al said (Despite my age, I always got the impression at the time that many people overwhelming felt the decade was of cultural mediocrity. Which it was.)

[© tweed]

Imagine skateboarding to Circuit City, purchasing Nevermind, and coming home to enjoy an ice cold Crystal Pepsi. Twenty years ago on this exact day. You just can't beat that. It's impossible.

Crystal Pepsi did not come out until 1992.  though perhaps this should be filed under 'poetic license'.

[The Mikado]

Out of the entire cultural output of the 1990s, I can't think of much I'm even vaguely nostalgic for.  Seinfeld qualifies.

[Insula Dei]

The peak of Western Civilization were the years following Augustus' victory at Actium. The dawn of the Pax Romana, combined with some of the greatest artists of all time being active.

[/predictable me]

[© tweed]

The peak of Western Civilization were the years following Augustus' victory at Actium. The dawn of the Pax Romana, combined with some of the greatest artists of all time being active.

[/predictable me]

what is your sig taken from?  it's hilarious

[Filuwaúrdjan]

But even with the strange American definition of middle class taken into account, how could one argue that the American middle class was destroyed in the late 60s/early 70s? I don't get that.

Unless you talk about an exclusively white middle class...

Well, you can't, really. Though, as has been said, you can look at the period as seeing the beginning of the process.

I would agree that it's taking the piss to date it from the late 1960s (even if it could be argued that certain policies pursued by the Nixon administration were partially responsible), but in the 1970s there was certainly a palpable sense of disintegration wrt this section of society (and the white aspect is important, of course. Specifically 'white ethnic'), and this was connected to various fundamental economic changes. Certain policies signed off by the Carter administration were also a factor. The main thing, really, is that the high living standards of the American 'middle class' were almost entirely down to the prolonged economic boom and to a related set of regulations and economic policies, rather than active attempts to redistribute the proceeds of capitalist success. But I think we're only seeing the destruction of that self-perceived social group now.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I've decided now to listen to Nevermind the whole way through, which I haven't in quite awhile.

Boris' scenario should also throw in watching Seinfeld and/or Married...With Children when you got home.

[Lief 🗽]

When I say late 1960s to early 1970s were the peak, I mean things started going down-hill after the early 70s (maybe after the mid 70s). Things were still fine during most of the Nixon administration.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Does anyone else ever do 90s nostalgia days? I try to have a day on a weekend about every two months where I only listen to 90s records and watch a bunch of 90s TV shows DVDs. I suppose there is something hypocritical about nostalgically listening to old music on an iPod and watching TV shows on DVD though.

[Beet]

What is the probability that, in spite of 9/11 terrorist attacks, future generations will tend to see the years 1989-2008 as a single unit? An era characterized by neo-liberalism, third way politics, and essential optimism. A case could be made for the 'Long Nineties' lasting from November 9, 1989 to September 15, 2008.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Here's how I see it, politically:

The 50's: End of the Korean War----JFK Assassination
The 60's: JFK Assasination----Nixon resigns
The 70's: Nixon Resigns----Reagan's inauguration
The 80's: Reagan's inauguration----Clinton's inauguration
The 90's: Clinton's inauguration----9/11 Attacks
The 00's: 9/11 Attacks----Present

Culturally:

The 50's: Elvis' first recording session----The Beatles appear on Ed Sullivan
The 60's: The Beatles on Ed Sullivan-----Hendrix/Joplin/Morrison deaths
The 70's: Hendrix/Joplin/Morrison deaths------MTV's First Day
The 80's: MTV's First Day-----Nevermind Released.
The 90's: Nevermind release------9/11 Again
The 00's: Same as Above.


What do you all think?

[Insula Dei]

The peak of Western Civilization were the years following Augustus' victory at Actium. The dawn of the Pax Romana, combined with some of the greatest artists of all time being active.

[/predictable me]

what is your sig taken from?  it's hilarious

It's a (most likely apocryphal) anecdote I picked from some blog a while ago. Can't even remember which one.

[Sam Spade]

What is the probability that, in spite of 9/11 terrorist attacks, future generations will tend to see the years 1989-2008 as a single unit? An era characterized by neo-liberalism, third way politics, and essential optimism. A case could be made for the 'Long Nineties' lasting from November 9, 1989 to September 15, 2008.

Quite possible, really.  I might even view such now.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

A stock market crash that took only a little over a year to recover from is definitely not comparable to 9/11 in notable events.

[patrick1]

A stock market crash that took only a little over a year to recover from is definitely not comparable to 9/11 in notable events.

It wasn't the stock market decline that was the big issue there, BRTD.  It exposed the very poor fundamentals in the global economy itself. We are still (not) recovering from the fallout.  The Dow may have stabilized a bit but the job market and lending are still horrible.