Washington State Recount, Part Deux

[CARLHAYDEN]

It doesn't matter how many times Rossi wins the election, Gregoire and associates will keep calling for a recount until somehow she wins.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Your intitial posting suggest that the votes have previously been counted only once, which is false.

There have already been two countes (both of which were won by Rossi).

If he prevails in the current rerecount, will Gregoire drop the matter?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Fern, you need watering again.

The Democrat candidate won the election for govenor in Montana.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Logan will "run" as many ballots as necessary to overturn the election result.

Kind of like Cook county where they had an old tradiction of 'finding' enought ballots to offset the rest of the state.

This determination to do whatever it takes to 'win' an election will pay dividents for Bush in 2006 when the electorate changes the Senate seat (despite all the efforts of Logan).

[CARLHAYDEN]

Logan will "run" as many ballots as necessary to overturn the election result.

Kind of like Cook county where they had an old tradiction of 'finding' enought ballots to offset the rest of the state.

This determination to do whatever it takes to 'win' an election will pay dividents for Bush in 2006 when the electorate changes the Senate seat (despite all the efforts of Logan).

Other counties, for the LAST time, have done the same thing. I do not consider the Republicans guilty of fraud for this or the Grays Harbor incident.

You should not talk about fraud when you do not actually know what is happening.

By the way, I also have a site up with updated results. It uses Dave's layout (I hope you don't mind, Dave - if you do, I'll be happy to take it down) and can be found here:

http://www.n00bshop.com/trafton/wagov/

Have you ever actually lived in Washington state?

Or, absent facts, do you just know everything about everything?

Are you going to deny the vote fraud history in Cook County?

I can cite other examples for your to 'deny' as well.

Yes, Logan will do whatever it takes to 'elect' Gregoire.

However, its going to cost the Democrats badly,

Most of the people in Washington state aren't happy with the twisting of the system right now.

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, I notice you haven't answered my question?

Second, I briefly worked with the Air Force there a number of years ago (North Dakota).

So, will you NOW answer my question?

[CARLHAYDEN]

I notice you seem incapable of answering a question.

[CARLHAYDEN]

You really need to learn to read.

First, I believe if you check, you will find that the approval cited in the TV poll was before Logan 'found' some more votes for Gregoire.  Or perhaps you believe that the participants in the survey knew that Gregoire was going to find some new votes for Gregoire (perhaps they are familiar with Dean's methodology) and the approve of it in advance.

Second, earlier this year the voters expressed strong resentment of the elimination of the blanket primary.  So, that is what I referred to in my previous post.  Although, I suspect that when they learn of Dean shennigans (I don't think they knew of what he was going to do before it did it), that they will be more than a little unhappy.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Have you ever actually lived in Washington state?

I live in it right now.

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Absolutely.

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No.

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Of Cook County? I really don't care about Illinois politics of yesteryear.

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You make nice statements like this without supporting them while insulting me. That seems to be your debating style.

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I can't wait to scroll down to find out why!

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That's very interesting! And certainly not what the polls I've seen on TV say! KOMO, our local ABC affiliate, had a poll that said 79% of people believe there was no wrong-doing. Then again, as someone who doesn't live in Washington State, you know a lot better than I do.

Oh, and BTW, the 'found' votes have increased to 595 at this point in time.

If  Logan needs to, I'm sure he can 'find' even more.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Well, lets address every one of you 'so-called' points.


You said (in response to my question of whether you have ever lived in Washington state):

I live in it right now.

I reply:

You say you live in Washington state (today).

Well, you have changed your avatar (both state and party) several times.

Will you still be 'living' in Washington state tomorrow?

Second, you acknowledged in response to my earlier post that you know everything about everything:

"Absolutely."

I respond. 

Its nice of you to admit your knowledge of everything (especially when you have no facts to deal with).  I prefer to deal in facts.  So, I don't 'know it all.'


Third, you at least did not deny that there was a history of vote fraud in Cook county, Illinois.  At least this establishes that you are capable of realizing that vote fraud has happened and is possible.

Fourth, I stated that Logan will come up with as many votes as necessary to elect Gregoire, and you consider this "insulting' you?  Have you bothered to notice, that Logan has increased the number of votes he has 'found'?  Or does pointing out that Logan has increased his 'found' votes for Gregoire insulting to you?  Are you Dean Logan (your extreme partisanship, unwillingness to deal with facts, and irrational posts certainly resemble Dean's style).

Fifth, while I believe that Logan will get away with finding enough votes to elect Gregoire, his arrogant and high handed effort to install his choice as Govenor will lead to a backlash against Logan, with Cantwell as the victim of that backlash.

Eventually enough people will be keeping a close watch on Logan's shenanigans so that when he tries to fix another election, he will be caught and prosecuted, and go to the slammer.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I really love your statements, they're so absurd.

Let me see. 

P1.  "I've never not lived in Washington State."

P2.  "I have a South Dakota avatar because I live in South Dakota much of the year."

Aside from a linguistic critique, i.e. it would be proper to make a simple positive statement such as 'I've always lived in Washington state,' than to produce a double negative (never not), it also seems to me that the two statements are (under set theory) logically inconsistent,  You have either always lived in Washington state (no need to capitalize the 's' in state, or you have lived both in South Dakota and Washington. 

Next lets turn to your 'know it all' statements.  If you look at your posts in the past you have made a large number of statements which were simply factually incorrect. 

Further, just how much "vote fraud" is sufficent to concern you?  Does it have to be "rampant"?  Oh, and by the way, just how much vote fraud does it take to be "rampant"?  How about enough vote fraud to change an election?

Next, you were offended because I critized Dean Logan.  So, if you're not Dean Logan, what's your problem?

Finally, you fall back on the old Bart Simpson line of "you can't prove it." 

I will concede that Logan probably has covered his trail pretty good on this one (although he may have missed something), but it is the last time he won't be carefully watched?

Note that I am familiar with Dean's technique, and posted that he would 'find' additional votes after the original 561.  I was right, its up to 595 now.  Will Dean have the nerve to "find" even more votes?  It really doesn't matter to Alcon as he will always believe that Logan (as long as he counts votes in favor of Gregoire).

[CARLHAYDEN]

Let me see.

Gregoire loses the first vote. 

Votes NOT found.

Gregoire loses first recount.

561 votes "found."

Recount proceeds in speedy pace in other (non King) counties, with Rossi adding a few votes to his margin.

Dean now 'finds' 34 more votes (to help off set votes picked up by Rossi).

If the rest of the counties show a significant gain for Rossi, Logan will 'find' yhet more votes.

Now a logical person might be a little suspicious at the pattern.

I can see that you have absolutely NO suspicions about the pattern.

Hmm.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Nice to see you say you are for an investigation.

As I have earlier said, I don't expect there to be a real investigation since Logan is doing the work his boses want.

He will however by investigated privately by Republicans who are angry at getting 'jobbed' by him.

As I said earlier, I think they're put him under a microscope (which he cann't survive).

I suspect he'll retire with an ample bonus.

I wonder if he'll flee, er retire, to Canada?

[CARLHAYDEN]

From cnn.com:

More uncounted ballots found in Washington governor's race

Friday, December 17, 2004 Posted: 2:34 PM EST

SEATTLE (AP) -- With Washington state in the middle of a recount of its close governor's race, election officials in Seattle's King County entered a warehouse Friday and found a plastic tray containing 150 misplaced ballots.

The discovery brings the number of belatedly discovered ballots to 723 in the heavily Democratic county -- potentially enough to swing the election to Democrat Christine Gregoire.

Republican Dino Rossi won the Nov. 2 election over Gregoire by 261 votes in the first count and by 42 after a machine recount of the 2.9 million ballots cast. On Thursday, with every county except King, Pierce and Spokane reporting, Rossi had pulled ahead by 74 votes.

King County Elections Director Dean Logan told The Seattle Times that the ballots in the tray, like the 573 other ballots found earlier this week, were mistakenly rejected because there was a problem with how the voters' signatures had been scanned into the county's computer system. The tray apparently was left behind and forgotten in the warehouse, Logan said.

Election workers, along with observers from the political parties, searched the locked cage inside the warehouse.

Officials became curious because none of the 573 ballot envelopes contained names beginning with the letters A or B, and only two started with C, The Times reported. That prompted Friday's search.

King County election officials want to count the ballots, which they say are valid votes. Republicans want those ballots to stay rejected -- or at the very least, they want King County to investigate further before adding them to the mix.

"We want to get some answers about these very suspicious ballots," Republican State Party Chairman Chris Vance said Thursday.

The GOP planned to ask a judge Friday to block King County from taking the newly discovered ballots out of their outer envelopes, which bear the voter's signature.

Vance said removing the envelopes would make it far more difficult to determine where the ballots came from, whether they were stored correctly and why they were not counted previously.

Either you are ignorant of the 1000 ballots which Dean Logan 'found' between the first vote count and the first recount (which no one challenged), or you don't care how many times Logan 'finds' more votes to help Gregoire.

The first thousand found (considering the timing and surrounding circumstances) indicates they were likely not counted in a genuine and understandable error.

The subsequent 'found' votes smell worse than limeburger set out in the mid day sun in July.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Apparently Dean Logan isn't satisfied that he has yet enough votes for Gregoire, and has pledged to 'find' another 162.

If those aren't enough, well, Dean will keep 'finding' more ballots.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002122510_ballotmystery17m.html

When the Ukrainian elections came out, they had the decency to junk the orginal vote and will be holding a revote.

The Washington Secretary of State has proposed just such an approach.

Hopefully, if it occurs, people will carefully watch Logan so he cann't keep finding more Gregoire ballots from his bottomless pit of ballots.

If you believe that Logan is 'honest,' then you must believe he's a total incompetent.

[CARLHAYDEN]

You have managed to twist what that says in wonderful ways, Carl. Volunteers found 162 votes because those idiots put them under papers or something of that sort.

There needs to be an investigation but until I see solid proof of fraud I will not pass judgement. That is only fair.

So, no matter no matter how many ballots Logan 'finds;' no matter how long after the election. we must presume that they are legitimate because Logan says so.

This is at least the fourth group of ballots Logan has 'found' since the original count.

More than a month since the election and Logal is still 'finding' ballots!?!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Either you are ignorant of the 1000 ballots which Dean Logan 'found' between the first vote count and the first recount (which no one challenged), or you don't care how many times Logan 'finds' more votes to help Gregoire.

Who is this "you" you speak of, CARLHAYDEN?

Well "Q", I quoted you!

I noted that the account you gave was highly misleading in that it lacked many essential facts (well, it was CNN) which would clarify the situation.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Again Carl, if the ballots that are found in King County are not valid ballots, then what exactly do you they they are?  Do you think they are fraudelent votes, or do you just think that voters should just be out of luck if an election worker screws up and their votes aren't counted the first time?

For the moment, let's make a 'leap of faith.'

Lets just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the ballots are totally legitimate.

Why did it take Logan over a month to find them?

The Keystone Kops weren't this incompetent!

Also, would you convict someone on the basis of evidence that wasn't available at an original trial, or the first retrial, but which the prosecution magically 'found' on the third retrial?

Chain of custody problems do arise.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Actually given the credulity that several posters had made on this subject, maybe the United States government should 'hire' Dean Logan to 'find' things.

Perhaps he can 'find' Jimmy Hoffa (just tell Logal Hoffa has a bunch of uncounted votes for Gregoire in his possession).

Perhaps he can 'find' Judge Crater (just tell him Crater has a bunch of uncounted votes for Gregoire in his possession).

The simple fact is that Washington state has become a total embarassment due to Dean Logan's 'finding' votes weeks (more than a month) after the election.

Do we have to learn something from the Ukraine about fair elections?

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, I will allow the dumb animals to 'graze' on the fodder you post.

Second, lets see if YOU understand just how many times, how many votes, and how late AFTER the election Dean Logan has 'found' votes.

Please post the date and number of votes 'found.'  Hint, since the election he has 'found' votes at four times (as of this posting).  He may YET find more votes, if he thinks Gregoire needs them.

Third, if Logan is so good at finding things we should hire him to 'find' other things (such as Jimmy Hoffa, Judge Crater, etc.).  If YOU REALLY believe Logan is so adept at 'finding' things, lets hire him to find other things (such as my list).

Fourth, after the fraudulent election in the Ukraine earlier this year, they at least are holding a new election (they recognize the ballots in the original elections have been compromised).  In Washington state, the Secretary of State has urged a new election as the current results are seriously tainted by Logan 'finding' votes for Gregoire over a month AFTER the election.  Does the Ukraine have a better sense of fairness than Washington state?  Hmm.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Again Carl, if the ballots that are found in King County are not valid ballots, then what exactly do you they they are?  Do you think they are fraudelent votes, or do you just think that voters should just be out of luck if an election worker screws up and their votes aren't counted the first time?

For the moment, let's make a 'leap of faith.'

Lets just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the ballots are totally legitimate.

Why did it take Logan over a month to find them?

The Keystone Kops weren't this incompetent!

Also, would you convict someone on the basis of evidence that wasn't available at an original trial, or the first retrial, but which the prosecution magically 'found' on the third retrial?

Chain of custody problems do arise.

You can't convict someone based on that subsequent evidence of guilt if double jeopardy had attached, but it can be used to exonerate someone who had already been convicted.  That's because their is a presumption of innocence, and the burden of proof is on the side of the prosecutor; we are willing to tolerate more false negatives in exchange for fewer false positives.

In the case of ballots, their should be a presumption that everyone's vote should count.  The burden of proof must be on the person who wants to disqualify a person's vote.  Absent some specific evidence that a person's vote is invalid, it should be counted, no matter how much the election workers screwed up.

There are probably errors of this sort in most elections; it's just that we don't hear about them because the elections aren't close enough to necessitate this level of scrutiny.   The whole point of having a recount is correct errors in the first count in the case where such errors might matter.  If Republicans (or anyone else) want to challenge specific ballots for specific reasons, that's fine, but they should be counted in the meantime.

Just how many times in this election and how often after the initial vote has Dean Logan 'found' more votes for Gregoire?

Can Logan find enought votes from the 2002 elections to change them (in short, how long does he have to 'find' votes to change the result?0.  Although your self-professed knowledge of the law amounts to the absurd, a Washington Judge has put an end to Logan's charade.

Logan has so polluted the voting stream that a reasonable approach would be to a new election, while Logan is prohibited from rigging the vote in King county.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Either you are ignorant of the 1000 ballots which Dean Logan 'found' between the first vote count and the first recount (which no one challenged), or you don't care how many times Logan 'finds' more votes to help Gregoire.

Who is this "you" you speak of, CARLHAYDEN?

Well "Q", I quoted you!

I noted that the account you gave was highly misleading in that it lacked many essential facts (well, it was CNN) which would clarify the situation.

I don't know why you called me ignorant, CARLHAYDEN.  I was merely providing that article as a service to update the forum on the crazy goings-on out there.  The entire thing was a direct quote from CNN.  I had nothing to do with which facts they chose to report.

You quoted a source which has a history of deliberately leaving out crucial facts with the intent of misinforming its audience.

CNN left out the fact that 1,000 (one thousand) ballots were 'found; in King county after the original count but before the first recount, and were contested by no one.

Ignorant people (Jesus, to mention one), are unaware of the 1,000 votes found earlier and therefore erroneously presume that the more recently found ballots are the only ballots found since the election in King county.

[CARLHAYDEN]

OKAY, so the rest of the state has found 1164 extra votes so far. And if King County makes up 1/3 of the state, it could come up with around 582 votes if it finds the the same "amount" (considering its size) as the rest of the state.

If these 582 votes go 58% Gregoire and 40% Rossi, that is 338 votes for Gregoire and 232 for Rossi, a 106 vote gain for Gregoire, which would give her the election.

Just an interesting fact, Garfield's addition of one extra vote would be equal to King County finding over 400 votes.

Ah, but King county previously 'found' 1,000 votes, concerning which you are presumably ignorant.

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, I will allow the dumb animals to 'graze' on the fodder you post.

Second, lets see if YOU understand just how many times, how many votes, and how late AFTER the election Dean Logan has 'found' votes.

Please post the date and number of votes 'found.'  Hint, since the election he has 'found' votes at four times (as of this posting).  He may YET find more votes, if he thinks Gregoire needs them.

Third, if Logan is so good at finding things we should hire him to 'find' other things (such as Jimmy Hoffa, Judge Crater, etc.).  If YOU REALLY believe Logan is so adept at 'finding' things, lets hire him to find other things (such as my list).

Fourth, after the fraudulent election in the Ukraine earlier this year, they at least are holding a new election (they recognize the ballots in the original elections have been compromised).  In Washington state, the Secretary of State has urged a new election as the current results are seriously tainted by Logan 'finding' votes for Gregoire over a month AFTER the election.  Does the Ukraine have a better sense of fairness than Washington state?  Hmm.

Uh, you really are pulling a lot of things after thin air, aren't you? If you actually took the time to read the news reports, you'd know that Sam Reed isn't the current SoS and urged this because of the close margin, not potential fraud.

You're really just repeating the same thing over and over again - Washington State is Ukraine II, Dean Logan is a cheater who should be thrown in jail, etcetra. Do you actually have anything to say? Because, if you do not, there is really no need to continue to reply. It just ends up making you sound like a broken record player of incorrectness.

First, I predicted that Logan would 'find' more votes BEFORE he announced he had 'found' those additional 'votes' (seems I knew what I was talking about there).  I seem to recall some scoffing from some quarters when I made the prediction at that time.

Second, a number of people have made erroneous comparisons between the found votes in King county and those found in the other counties in the state, omitting the 1,000 originaly found in King county after the original count. 

Third, a judge has issued an order prohibiting inclusion of the recently 'found' votes King county votes.  This is another fact that you seem to want to ignore.  Here's a link:

http://news.lycos.com/news/story.asp?section=Elections&storyId=964192

Fourth, you keep just defending Logan, adding nothing of information to the thread, save you linguistic faux pax and illogical arguments.

Finally, I notice that you haven't bothered to list the dates and number of votes that Logan has 'found' as I requested you to list.  If you had bothered with this little matter, it might begin to dawn on even you that things aren't quite right in Loganland.

[CARLHAYDEN]

For those of you familiar with statistical mathematics, I have a question for you.

If you take the original total for all votes counted for Govenor in the state of Washington this year by county, and then take the square root of that number, which one county has already exceeded adding on more than the square root of initial votes?

Hint, its the one county which has not yet posted its recount total.