Washington State Recount, Part Deux

[A18]

No. They should be counted the first time.

Do you honestly think I care who you elect as Governor of a state I'll probably never live in?

[Alcon]

No. They should be counted the first time.

Do you honestly think I care who you elect as Governor of a state I'll probably never live in?

You care enough to provide a stupid argument.

[CARLHAYDEN]

From cnn.com:

More uncounted ballots found in Washington governor's race

Friday, December 17, 2004 Posted: 2:34 PM EST

SEATTLE (AP) -- With Washington state in the middle of a recount of its close governor's race, election officials in Seattle's King County entered a warehouse Friday and found a plastic tray containing 150 misplaced ballots.

The discovery brings the number of belatedly discovered ballots to 723 in the heavily Democratic county -- potentially enough to swing the election to Democrat Christine Gregoire.

Republican Dino Rossi won the Nov. 2 election over Gregoire by 261 votes in the first count and by 42 after a machine recount of the 2.9 million ballots cast. On Thursday, with every county except King, Pierce and Spokane reporting, Rossi had pulled ahead by 74 votes.

King County Elections Director Dean Logan told The Seattle Times that the ballots in the tray, like the 573 other ballots found earlier this week, were mistakenly rejected because there was a problem with how the voters' signatures had been scanned into the county's computer system. The tray apparently was left behind and forgotten in the warehouse, Logan said.

Election workers, along with observers from the political parties, searched the locked cage inside the warehouse.

Officials became curious because none of the 573 ballot envelopes contained names beginning with the letters A or B, and only two started with C, The Times reported. That prompted Friday's search.

King County election officials want to count the ballots, which they say are valid votes. Republicans want those ballots to stay rejected -- or at the very least, they want King County to investigate further before adding them to the mix.

"We want to get some answers about these very suspicious ballots," Republican State Party Chairman Chris Vance said Thursday.

The GOP planned to ask a judge Friday to block King County from taking the newly discovered ballots out of their outer envelopes, which bear the voter's signature.

Vance said removing the envelopes would make it far more difficult to determine where the ballots came from, whether they were stored correctly and why they were not counted previously.

Either you are ignorant of the 1000 ballots which Dean Logan 'found' between the first vote count and the first recount (which no one challenged), or you don't care how many times Logan 'finds' more votes to help Gregoire.

The first thousand found (considering the timing and surrounding circumstances) indicates they were likely not counted in a genuine and understandable error.

The subsequent 'found' votes smell worse than limeburger set out in the mid day sun in July.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

If you are so suspicious then what is your theory on where the ballots came from?  Do you think they were cast after the election?  Or are they actually completely fake, totally unconnected to an actual voter?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Apparently Dean Logan isn't satisfied that he has yet enough votes for Gregoire, and has pledged to 'find' another 162.

If those aren't enough, well, Dean will keep 'finding' more ballots.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002122510_ballotmystery17m.html

When the Ukrainian elections came out, they had the decency to junk the orginal vote and will be holding a revote.

The Washington Secretary of State has proposed just such an approach.

Hopefully, if it occurs, people will carefully watch Logan so he cann't keep finding more Gregoire ballots from his bottomless pit of ballots.

If you believe that Logan is 'honest,' then you must believe he's a total incompetent.

[Alcon]

You have managed to twist what that says in wonderful ways, Carl. Volunteers found 162 votes because those idiots put them under papers or something of that sort.

There needs to be an investigation but until I see solid proof of fraud I will not pass judgement. That is only fair.

[Q]

Either you are ignorant of the 1000 ballots which Dean Logan 'found' between the first vote count and the first recount (which no one challenged), or you don't care how many times Logan 'finds' more votes to help Gregoire.

Who is this "you" you speak of, CARLHAYDEN?

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Again Carl, if the ballots that are found in King County are not valid ballots, then what exactly do you they they are?  Do you think they are fraudelent votes, or do you just think that voters should just be out of luck if an election worker screws up and their votes aren't counted the first time?

[J. J.]

Again Carl, if the ballots that are found in King County are not valid ballots, then what exactly do you they they are?  Do you think they are fraudelent votes, or do you just think that voters should just be out of luck if an election worker screws up and their votes aren't counted the first time?

They could be something like absentee ballots from people that showed up and voting at the polls or ballots invalid for some other reason.

[CARLHAYDEN]

You have managed to twist what that says in wonderful ways, Carl. Volunteers found 162 votes because those idiots put them under papers or something of that sort.

There needs to be an investigation but until I see solid proof of fraud I will not pass judgement. That is only fair.

So, no matter no matter how many ballots Logan 'finds;' no matter how long after the election. we must presume that they are legitimate because Logan says so.

This is at least the fourth group of ballots Logan has 'found' since the original count.

More than a month since the election and Logal is still 'finding' ballots!?!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Either you are ignorant of the 1000 ballots which Dean Logan 'found' between the first vote count and the first recount (which no one challenged), or you don't care how many times Logan 'finds' more votes to help Gregoire.

Who is this "you" you speak of, CARLHAYDEN?

Well "Q", I quoted you!

I noted that the account you gave was highly misleading in that it lacked many essential facts (well, it was CNN) which would clarify the situation.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Again Carl, if the ballots that are found in King County are not valid ballots, then what exactly do you they they are?  Do you think they are fraudelent votes, or do you just think that voters should just be out of luck if an election worker screws up and their votes aren't counted the first time?

For the moment, let's make a 'leap of faith.'

Lets just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the ballots are totally legitimate.

Why did it take Logan over a month to find them?

The Keystone Kops weren't this incompetent!

Also, would you convict someone on the basis of evidence that wasn't available at an original trial, or the first retrial, but which the prosecution magically 'found' on the third retrial?

Chain of custody problems do arise.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Actually given the credulity that several posters had made on this subject, maybe the United States government should 'hire' Dean Logan to 'find' things.

Perhaps he can 'find' Jimmy Hoffa (just tell Logal Hoffa has a bunch of uncounted votes for Gregoire in his possession).

Perhaps he can 'find' Judge Crater (just tell him Crater has a bunch of uncounted votes for Gregoire in his possession).

The simple fact is that Washington state has become a total embarassment due to Dean Logan's 'finding' votes weeks (more than a month) after the election.

Do we have to learn something from the Ukraine about fair elections?

[Alcon]

You have managed to twist what that says in wonderful ways, Carl. Volunteers found 162 votes because those idiots put them under papers or something of that sort.

There needs to be an investigation but until I see solid proof of fraud I will not pass judgement. That is only fair.

So, no matter no matter how many ballots Logan 'finds;' no matter how long after the election. we must presume that they are legitimate because Logan says so.

This is at least the fourth group of ballots Logan has 'found' since the original count.

More than a month since the election and Logal is still 'finding' ballots!?!

You have an amazing talent for reading what you want to read or assume based on your prejudices. Do you actually take the time to read what I am saying or just graze over it and give one of your generic replies?

I said that I demand an independent investigation. How in the world could anyone sanely misinterpret that statement as "we need to take his word for it"?

Come on, man. And you say that I can't read.

Jimmy Hoffa and the Ukraine are in on this too? You have an odd little fantasy world where unattached concepts float around in your mind like counting sheep, dancing and weaving together into some sort of odd plot that I can't quite grasp. Now, explain to me what Ukraine and Jimmy Hoffa have to do with our recount.

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, I will allow the dumb animals to 'graze' on the fodder you post.

Second, lets see if YOU understand just how many times, how many votes, and how late AFTER the election Dean Logan has 'found' votes.

Please post the date and number of votes 'found.'  Hint, since the election he has 'found' votes at four times (as of this posting).  He may YET find more votes, if he thinks Gregoire needs them.

Third, if Logan is so good at finding things we should hire him to 'find' other things (such as Jimmy Hoffa, Judge Crater, etc.).  If YOU REALLY believe Logan is so adept at 'finding' things, lets hire him to find other things (such as my list).

Fourth, after the fraudulent election in the Ukraine earlier this year, they at least are holding a new election (they recognize the ballots in the original elections have been compromised).  In Washington state, the Secretary of State has urged a new election as the current results are seriously tainted by Logan 'finding' votes for Gregoire over a month AFTER the election.  Does the Ukraine have a better sense of fairness than Washington state?  Hmm.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Again Carl, if the ballots that are found in King County are not valid ballots, then what exactly do you they they are?  Do you think they are fraudelent votes, or do you just think that voters should just be out of luck if an election worker screws up and their votes aren't counted the first time?

For the moment, let's make a 'leap of faith.'

Lets just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the ballots are totally legitimate.

Why did it take Logan over a month to find them?

The Keystone Kops weren't this incompetent!

Also, would you convict someone on the basis of evidence that wasn't available at an original trial, or the first retrial, but which the prosecution magically 'found' on the third retrial?

Chain of custody problems do arise.

You can't convict someone based on that subsequent evidence of guilt if double jeopardy had attached, but it can be used to exonerate someone who had already been convicted.  That's because their is a presumption of innocence, and the burden of proof is on the side of the prosecutor; we are willing to tolerate more false negatives in exchange for fewer false positives.

In the case of ballots, their should be a presumption that everyone's vote should count.  The burden of proof must be on the person who wants to disqualify a person's vote.  Absent some specific evidence that a person's vote is invalid, it should be counted, no matter how much the election workers screwed up.

There are probably errors of this sort in most elections; it's just that we don't hear about them because the elections aren't close enough to necessitate this level of scrutiny.   The whole point of having a recount is correct errors in the first count in the case where such errors might matter.  If Republicans (or anyone else) want to challenge specific ballots for specific reasons, that's fine, but they should be counted in the meantime.

[Q]

Either you are ignorant of the 1000 ballots which Dean Logan 'found' between the first vote count and the first recount (which no one challenged), or you don't care how many times Logan 'finds' more votes to help Gregoire.

Who is this "you" you speak of, CARLHAYDEN?

Well "Q", I quoted you!

I noted that the account you gave was highly misleading in that it lacked many essential facts (well, it was CNN) which would clarify the situation.

I don't know why you called me ignorant, CARLHAYDEN.  I was merely providing that article as a service to update the forum on the crazy goings-on out there.  The entire thing was a direct quote from CNN.  I had nothing to do with which facts they chose to report.

[bgwah]

OKAY, so the rest of the state has found 1164 extra votes so far. And if King County makes up 1/3 of the state, it could come up with around 582 votes if it finds the the same "amount" (considering its size) as the rest of the state.

If these 582 votes go 58% Gregoire and 40% Rossi, that is 338 votes for Gregoire and 232 for Rossi, a 106 vote gain for Gregoire, which would give her the election.

Just an interesting fact, Garfield's addition of one extra vote would be equal to King County finding over 400 votes.

[ATFFL]

OKAY, so the rest of the state has found 1164 extra votes so far. And if King County makes up 1/3 of the state, it could come up with around 582 votes if it finds the the same "amount" (considering its size) as the rest of the state.

If these 582 votes go 58% Gregoire and 40% Rossi, that is 338 votes for Gregoire and 232 for Rossi, a 106 vote gain for Gregoire, which would give her the election.

Just an interesting fact, Garfield's addition of one extra vote would be equal to King County finding over 400 votes.

There is a difference between finding extra votes that were not counted by the machine and finding extra ballots that were never put into the machines to be counted.

The most amazing thing is that, despite several officials looking, the same person finds each and every new, never before seen ballot.

Answer me this:  If Bush lost Ohio by 42 votes and Karl Rove kept finding new ballots would you think that was normal or would you be on here screaming bloody murder?

Something is not right here.  Whether it is willful fraud or gross incompetence something is not right.

Simply put, there is a roll of who shows up to vote.  This gives us a total number of ballots that were filled out.  After the first machine count the discrepency between the number of ballots cast and the number of ballots fed to the machine should have been noticed.  There should be a record of this somewhere.  At that moment King County should have begun looking for the missing ballots, if there are any ballots that were legitimately not put into the counting machine..

[Sam Spade]

There is a difference between finding extra votes that were not counted by the machine and finding extra ballots that were never put into the machines to be counted.

The most amazing thing is that, despite several officials looking, the same person finds each and every new, never before seen ballot.

Answer me this:  If Bush lost Ohio by 42 votes and Karl Rove kept finding new ballots would you think that was normal or would you be on here screaming bloody murder?

Something is not right here.  Whether it is willful fraud or gross incompetence something is not right.

Simply put, there is a roll of who shows up to vote.  This gives us a total number of ballots that were filled out.  After the first machine count the discrepency between the number of ballots cast and the number of ballots fed to the machine should have been noticed.  There should be a record of this somewhere.  At that moment King County should have begun looking for the missing ballots, if there are any ballots that were legitimately not put into the counting machine..

Exactly.  Couldn't say it better myself.

[Will F.D. People]

If there are valid votes that have not yet been counted, they should definately be counted.

Just for the record, it is the Democrats in Montana that are trying to keep votes from being counted in the race that will decide who controls the lower house.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Again Carl, if the ballots that are found in King County are not valid ballots, then what exactly do you they they are?  Do you think they are fraudelent votes, or do you just think that voters should just be out of luck if an election worker screws up and their votes aren't counted the first time?

For the moment, let's make a 'leap of faith.'

Lets just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the ballots are totally legitimate.

Why did it take Logan over a month to find them?

The Keystone Kops weren't this incompetent!

Also, would you convict someone on the basis of evidence that wasn't available at an original trial, or the first retrial, but which the prosecution magically 'found' on the third retrial?

Chain of custody problems do arise.

You can't convict someone based on that subsequent evidence of guilt if double jeopardy had attached, but it can be used to exonerate someone who had already been convicted.  That's because their is a presumption of innocence, and the burden of proof is on the side of the prosecutor; we are willing to tolerate more false negatives in exchange for fewer false positives.

In the case of ballots, their should be a presumption that everyone's vote should count.  The burden of proof must be on the person who wants to disqualify a person's vote.  Absent some specific evidence that a person's vote is invalid, it should be counted, no matter how much the election workers screwed up.

There are probably errors of this sort in most elections; it's just that we don't hear about them because the elections aren't close enough to necessitate this level of scrutiny.   The whole point of having a recount is correct errors in the first count in the case where such errors might matter.  If Republicans (or anyone else) want to challenge specific ballots for specific reasons, that's fine, but they should be counted in the meantime.

Just how many times in this election and how often after the initial vote has Dean Logan 'found' more votes for Gregoire?

Can Logan find enought votes from the 2002 elections to change them (in short, how long does he have to 'find' votes to change the result?0.  Although your self-professed knowledge of the law amounts to the absurd, a Washington Judge has put an end to Logan's charade.

Logan has so polluted the voting stream that a reasonable approach would be to a new election, while Logan is prohibited from rigging the vote in King county.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Either you are ignorant of the 1000 ballots which Dean Logan 'found' between the first vote count and the first recount (which no one challenged), or you don't care how many times Logan 'finds' more votes to help Gregoire.

Who is this "you" you speak of, CARLHAYDEN?

Well "Q", I quoted you!

I noted that the account you gave was highly misleading in that it lacked many essential facts (well, it was CNN) which would clarify the situation.

I don't know why you called me ignorant, CARLHAYDEN.  I was merely providing that article as a service to update the forum on the crazy goings-on out there.  The entire thing was a direct quote from CNN.  I had nothing to do with which facts they chose to report.

You quoted a source which has a history of deliberately leaving out crucial facts with the intent of misinforming its audience.

CNN left out the fact that 1,000 (one thousand) ballots were 'found; in King county after the original count but before the first recount, and were contested by no one.

Ignorant people (Jesus, to mention one), are unaware of the 1,000 votes found earlier and therefore erroneously presume that the more recently found ballots are the only ballots found since the election in King county.

[CARLHAYDEN]

OKAY, so the rest of the state has found 1164 extra votes so far. And if King County makes up 1/3 of the state, it could come up with around 582 votes if it finds the the same "amount" (considering its size) as the rest of the state.

If these 582 votes go 58% Gregoire and 40% Rossi, that is 338 votes for Gregoire and 232 for Rossi, a 106 vote gain for Gregoire, which would give her the election.

Just an interesting fact, Garfield's addition of one extra vote would be equal to King County finding over 400 votes.

Ah, but King county previously 'found' 1,000 votes, concerning which you are presumably ignorant.

[phk]

If Rossi is religous, he should be fed to loins.