Washington State Recount, Part Deux
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  Washington State Recount, Part Deux
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Author Topic: Washington State Recount, Part Deux  (Read 24706 times)
Alcon
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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2004, 05:47:32 PM »

Have you ever actually lived in Washington state?
I live in it right now.

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Absolutely.

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No.

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Of Cook County? I really don't care about Illinois politics of yesteryear.

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You make nice statements like this without supporting them while insulting me. That seems to be your debating style.

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I can't wait to scroll down to find out why!

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That's very interesting! And certainly not what the polls I've seen on TV say! KOMO, our local ABC affiliate, had a poll that said 79% of people believe there was no wrong-doing. Then again, as someone who doesn't live in Washington State, you know a lot better than I do.
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2004, 08:21:34 PM »

You really need to learn to read.

First, I believe if you check, you will find that the approval cited in the TV poll was before Logan 'found' some more votes for Gregoire.  Or perhaps you believe that the participants in the survey knew that Gregoire was going to find some new votes for Gregoire (perhaps they are familiar with Dean's methodology) and the approve of it in advance.

Second, earlier this year the voters expressed strong resentment of the elimination of the blanket primary.  So, that is what I referred to in my previous post.  Although, I suspect that when they learn of Dean shennigans (I don't think they knew of what he was going to do before it did it), that they will be more than a little unhappy.
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2004, 08:46:15 PM »

Have you ever actually lived in Washington state?
I live in it right now.

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Absolutely.

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No.

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Of Cook County? I really don't care about Illinois politics of yesteryear.

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You make nice statements like this without supporting them while insulting me. That seems to be your debating style.

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I can't wait to scroll down to find out why!

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That's very interesting! And certainly not what the polls I've seen on TV say! KOMO, our local ABC affiliate, had a poll that said 79% of people believe there was no wrong-doing. Then again, as someone who doesn't live in Washington State, you know a lot better than I do.

Oh, and BTW, the 'found' votes have increased to 595 at this point in time.

If  Logan needs to, I'm sure he can 'find' even more.
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Alcon
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2004, 08:55:06 PM »

Have you ever actually lived in Washington state?
I live in it right now.

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Absolutely.

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No.

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Of Cook County? I really don't care about Illinois politics of yesteryear.

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You make nice statements like this without supporting them while insulting me. That seems to be your debating style.

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I can't wait to scroll down to find out why!

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That's very interesting! And certainly not what the polls I've seen on TV say! KOMO, our local ABC affiliate, had a poll that said 79% of people believe there was no wrong-doing. Then again, as someone who doesn't live in Washington State, you know a lot better than I do.

Oh, and BTW, the 'found' votes have increased to 595 at this point in time.

If  Logan needs to, I'm sure he can 'find' even more.

Well, that's fine. Care to address my points?
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2004, 09:17:08 PM »

Well, lets address every one of you 'so-called' points.


You said (in response to my question of whether you have ever lived in Washington state):

I live in it right now.

I reply:

You say you live in Washington state (today).

Well, you have changed your avatar (both state and party) several times.

Will you still be 'living' in Washington state tomorrow?

Second, you acknowledged in response to my earlier post that you know everything about everything:

"Absolutely."

I respond. 

Its nice of you to admit your knowledge of everything (especially when you have no facts to deal with).  I prefer to deal in facts.  So, I don't 'know it all.'


Third, you at least did not deny that there was a history of vote fraud in Cook county, Illinois.  At least this establishes that you are capable of realizing that vote fraud has happened and is possible.

Fourth, I stated that Logan will come up with as many votes as necessary to elect Gregoire, and you consider this "insulting' you?  Have you bothered to notice, that Logan has increased the number of votes he has 'found'?  Or does pointing out that Logan has increased his 'found' votes for Gregoire insulting to you?  Are you Dean Logan (your extreme partisanship, unwillingness to deal with facts, and irrational posts certainly resemble Dean's style).

Fifth, while I believe that Logan will get away with finding enough votes to elect Gregoire, his arrogant and high handed effort to install his choice as Govenor will lead to a backlash against Logan, with Cantwell as the victim of that backlash.

Eventually enough people will be keeping a close watch on Logan's shenanigans so that when he tries to fix another election, he will be caught and prosecuted, and go to the slammer.

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Alcon
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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2004, 09:44:16 PM »

Well, lets address every one of you 'so-called' points.


You said (in response to my question of whether you have ever lived in Washington state):

I live in it right now.

I reply:

You say you live in Washington state (today).

Well, you have changed your avatar (both state and party) several times.

Will you still be 'living' in Washington state tomorrow?
I've never not lived in Washington State. I have a South Dakota avatar (now Democratic because it is confusing people, which I didn't intend) because I live in South Dakota much of the year. You, on the other hand, have no avatar. I have more of them, so I win.

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You are the first person I know to actually take that sort of response seriously and then attack it.

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I've never denied that voter fraud occurs. In every election, heck. But I don't think it was rampant in this election - I have seen little proof that it aws.

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Yes, I am, in fact, Dean Logan. How in the world did you know? I was referring to your repeated assertions that I am incapable of understanding facts and whatnot. However, as Dean Logan, I am thoroughly offended at these accusations.

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I have to disagree, as a resident who sees the reaction around me. Many people just want this to end, and there isn't much viciousness as to who wins.

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Do you actually have any proof he has done anything wrong? Can you really tell me that you would not be screaming that the votes must be counted and the Democrats are trying to stop that if this was, say, in Benton County? I would love to agree with you if you offered more proof beyond "ballots are being found!" This has happened in other counties, too. Why are you not offended by that? Why does it not bother you that Grays Harbor County duplicated precinct results?
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2004, 10:21:24 PM »

I really love your statements, they're so absurd.

Let me see. 

P1.  "I've never not lived in Washington State."

P2.  "I have a South Dakota avatar because I live in South Dakota much of the year."

Aside from a linguistic critique, i.e. it would be proper to make a simple positive statement such as 'I've always lived in Washington state,' than to produce a double negative (never not), it also seems to me that the two statements are (under set theory) logically inconsistent,  You have either always lived in Washington state (no need to capitalize the 's' in state, or you have lived both in South Dakota and Washington. 

Next lets turn to your 'know it all' statements.  If you look at your posts in the past you have made a large number of statements which were simply factually incorrect. 

Further, just how much "vote fraud" is sufficent to concern you?  Does it have to be "rampant"?  Oh, and by the way, just how much vote fraud does it take to be "rampant"?  How about enough vote fraud to change an election?

Next, you were offended because I critized Dean Logan.  So, if you're not Dean Logan, what's your problem?

Finally, you fall back on the old Bart Simpson line of "you can't prove it." 

I will concede that Logan probably has covered his trail pretty good on this one (although he may have missed something), but it is the last time he won't be carefully watched?

Note that I am familiar with Dean's technique, and posted that he would 'find' additional votes after the original 561.  I was right, its up to 595 now.  Will Dean have the nerve to "find" even more votes?  It really doesn't matter to Alcon as he will always believe that Logan (as long as he counts votes in favor of Gregoire).

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Alcon
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« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2004, 10:31:16 PM »

I really love your statements, they're so absurd.

Let me see. 

P1.  "I've never not lived in Washington State."

P2.  "I have a South Dakota avatar because I live in South Dakota much of the year."

Aside from a linguistic critique, i.e. it would be proper to make a simple positive statement such as 'I've always lived in Washington state,' than to produce a double negative (never not), it also seems to me that the two statements are (under set theory) logically inconsistent,  You have either always lived in Washington state (no need to capitalize the 's' in state, or you have lived both in South Dakota and Washington.
I have a home in South Dakota but still technically live in Washington State. Phrased badly.

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No, it does not have to be rampant. If this was voter fraud, I would consider it rampant. By minor voter fraud I mean things like someone else filling out someone's absentee ballot. Normally this would not cause much concern, but in this election, it does matter.

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Haha, no, I wasn't. Again, I wasn't really offended. I just wonder why you feel the need to criticize me and never say anything positive whatsoever. You have been nasty to me since the first post. You seem to take this a lot more personally than you should - it's just politics.

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Actually, I am considering him innocent until proven guilty. Of course, despite little evidence other than him finding ballots in the county, you have not provided much evidence.

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If he did it, and it can be proven, he should go to jail. End of story. Accuse me away, but if someone does a crime, they should go to jail accordingly. I do not want any outcome that does not actually represent the voting.

Could I make a small request: that we not trade personal attacks? I absolutely hate doing that, and am not very good at it. I may be wrong sometimes, but I do not think I was always right. My attempts to bring levity have resulted in you snapping at me. And there is no need to accuse me of supporting voter fraud. Just give me the benefit of the doubt.
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2004, 10:47:25 PM »

Let me see.

Gregoire loses the first vote. 

Votes NOT found.

Gregoire loses first recount.

561 votes "found."

Recount proceeds in speedy pace in other (non King) counties, with Rossi adding a few votes to his margin.

Dean now 'finds' 34 more votes (to help off set votes picked up by Rossi).

If the rest of the counties show a significant gain for Rossi, Logan will 'find' yhet more votes.

Now a logical person might be a little suspicious at the pattern.

I can see that you have absolutely NO suspicions about the pattern.

Hmm.
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Alcon
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« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2004, 10:54:48 PM »

Let me see.

Gregoire loses the first vote. 

Votes NOT found.
It was a machine count. And maybe votes WERE found then. That wouldn't be a big deal.

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I think we can safely say that they were found without quotations - these are real votes, one would assume, considering that they released a list of whose votes they were (I have to wonder how they knew, but whatever). It was still terribly irresponsible.

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Gregoire still would probably have gone on to win without those, but yes.

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I somehow doubt it. Then again, Kitsap, which was close, gave Rossi a big boost.

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Uh, have you been entirely ignoring my posts? I'm personally calling for an investigation into why this happened statewide. What part of that screams that I'm not suspicious to you?
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2004, 11:01:21 PM »

Nice to see you say you are for an investigation.

As I have earlier said, I don't expect there to be a real investigation since Logan is doing the work his boses want.

He will however by investigated privately by Republicans who are angry at getting 'jobbed' by him.

As I said earlier, I think they're put him under a microscope (which he cann't survive).

I suspect he'll retire with an ample bonus.

I wonder if he'll flee, er retire, to Canada?
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2004, 11:50:53 PM »

The Democrats will "find" enough votes to win.  I applaud them for it. 

I also applaud them for managing to convince enough idiot voters in Washington State that they're not cheating.

I mean, really, Republicans are just not very good at cheating or stealing elections.  When they steal elections, they win by way too many votes for it to be rational discerned that they stole the election. 

They really need to start "finding votes" when these margins get closer, so they can start claiming that "every vote needs to be counted."

Maybe then, and only then, they'll start winning the dumb voters.
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J. J.
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2004, 12:30:59 AM »


No, it does not have to be rampant. If this was voter fraud, I would consider it rampant. By minor voter fraud I mean things like someone else filling out someone's absentee ballot. Normally this would not cause much concern, but in this election, it does matter.


Actually, one of the few state elections overturned by the Federal Courts was because of this.  It was a State Senate District here in Phila in the mid-1990's.  Perhaps Keystone or IrishDem remember it.
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Alcon
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2004, 03:40:29 PM »

The Democrats will "find" enough votes to win.  I applaud them for it. 

I also applaud them for managing to convince enough idiot voters in Washington State that they're not cheating.

I mean, really, Republicans are just not very good at cheating or stealing elections.  When they steal elections, they win by way too many votes for it to be rational discerned that they stole the election. 

They really need to start "finding votes" when these margins get closer, so they can start claiming that "every vote needs to be counted."

Maybe then, and only then, they'll start winning the dumb voters.

These votes need to be independently verified. If they are real votes, which I assume at least some of them are, they need to be counted. Does this not make sense?
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phk
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2004, 09:24:13 PM »

but wait, isn't Washington a Democratic State, why is a Republican winning?

Its almost as asinine as Conrad getting re-elected in 2006.
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Alcon
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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2004, 09:28:36 PM »

but wait, isn't Washington a Democratic State, why is a Republican winning?

Its almost as asinine as Conrad getting re-elected in 2006.

Rossi, despite being fairly conservative, ran as a moderate. Actually, he ran as a nice guy. Gregoire decided to be as icy and arrogant as possible.

In most other states, Gregoire would have lost in a landslide. However, if Gregoire had done a better job at pointing out that Rossi is actually a lot more conservative than he pretends to be, she would have won significantly.
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Q
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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2004, 03:14:29 PM »

From cnn.com:

More uncounted ballots found in Washington governor's race

Friday, December 17, 2004 Posted: 2:34 PM EST

SEATTLE (AP) -- With Washington state in the middle of a recount of its close governor's race, election officials in Seattle's King County entered a warehouse Friday and found a plastic tray containing 150 misplaced ballots.

The discovery brings the number of belatedly discovered ballots to 723 in the heavily Democratic county -- potentially enough to swing the election to Democrat Christine Gregoire.

Republican Dino Rossi won the Nov. 2 election over Gregoire by 261 votes in the first count and by 42 after a machine recount of the 2.9 million ballots cast. On Thursday, with every county except King, Pierce and Spokane reporting, Rossi had pulled ahead by 74 votes.

King County Elections Director Dean Logan told The Seattle Times that the ballots in the tray, like the 573 other ballots found earlier this week, were mistakenly rejected because there was a problem with how the voters' signatures had been scanned into the county's computer system. The tray apparently was left behind and forgotten in the warehouse, Logan said.

Election workers, along with observers from the political parties, searched the locked cage inside the warehouse.

Officials became curious because none of the 573 ballot envelopes contained names beginning with the letters A or B, and only two started with C, The Times reported. That prompted Friday's search.

King County election officials want to count the ballots, which they say are valid votes. Republicans want those ballots to stay rejected -- or at the very least, they want King County to investigate further before adding them to the mix.

"We want to get some answers about these very suspicious ballots," Republican State Party Chairman Chris Vance said Thursday.

The GOP planned to ask a judge Friday to block King County from taking the newly discovered ballots out of their outer envelopes, which bear the voter's signature.

Vance said removing the envelopes would make it far more difficult to determine where the ballots came from, whether they were stored correctly and why they were not counted previously.
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bgwah
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« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2004, 07:18:42 PM »

Republicans got a judge to rule against democracy. Democrats will appeal.

Too bad the Republicans hate demoracy and freedom so much.
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A18
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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2004, 07:19:47 PM »

Bgwah, why aren't you a Democrat?

"Finding" ballots is not democracy.
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bgwah
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2004, 07:23:38 PM »

^No, it is not. But counting valid votes is, which is what the Republicans oppose because they hate democracy, just like you.

Are you happy Philip? The Republicans of Washington have managed to toss out those evil city votes!

I'm not a democrat because I don't want to be, and they're a bit to economically liberal sometimes.
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A18
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« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2004, 07:44:09 PM »

I hate unchecked democracy, but I still believe in counting the votes.

There should not be a recount every time someone doesn't like the result. Count once, count accurately, and move on.
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Alcon
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« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2004, 07:45:00 PM »

I think the votes should be checked before they are counted, but not left uncounted. They have been found and if they are OK, I don't see what the issue is. I see the validity in the "check them" argument, but not the "throw 'em out" one.
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bgwah
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« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2004, 08:10:28 PM »

I think the votes should be checked before they are counted, but not left uncounted. They have been found and if they are OK, I don't see what the issue is. I see the validity in the "check them" argument, but not the "throw 'em out" one.

The validity is that the Republicans might not win, and thats good enough for them.
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A18
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« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2004, 08:35:08 PM »

You count the votes and that's all there is to it. Overturning results is a bad precedent.
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bgwah
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« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2004, 08:36:54 PM »

You count the votes and that's all there is to it. Overturning results is a bad precedent.

If there are valid votes that have not yet been counted, they should definately be counted.
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