PRC acting like a dick to Vietnam, Philippines
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  PRC acting like a dick to Vietnam, Philippines
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Author Topic: PRC acting like a dick to Vietnam, Philippines  (Read 5365 times)
dead0man
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« on: May 27, 2011, 09:52:52 PM »

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Verily
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2011, 09:56:46 PM »

China, historically, has never played well with others. Its reemergence on the international scene is quickly reminding the world of that.
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GMantis
Dessie Potter
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2011, 02:25:34 AM »

Considering that they're defending territory they are claiming, it's hardly surprising that they don't react well to intrusion in this territory.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2011, 10:56:16 AM »

The Spratly Islands have been subject to competing claims since at least the 19th century.  The Philippine claim is weak, but the Vietnamese claim is strong on my opinion.
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Sbane
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2011, 11:32:30 AM »
« Edited: May 28, 2011, 11:35:16 AM by sbane »

This shouldn't surprise anyone. I expect nothing better from the Chinese government.

I don't really get what the Chinese foreign policy is all about. It's as if they want enemies everywhere..... it's not going to work out well for them.
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opebo
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2011, 01:54:42 PM »

In fairness, at a similar stage in its development, the US was seizing the Philippines from Spain, along with Cuba and Puerto Rico - expansionism far afield - and a little later on was doing a genocide in Vietnam.  True, China is bad news for everybody, and worst for these nearby weak states, but in context of the previous superpower, its positively shy and retiring.
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Sbane
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2011, 08:38:54 PM »

In fairness, at a similar stage in its development, the US was seizing the Philippines from Spain, along with Cuba and Puerto Rico - expansionism far afield - and a little later on was doing a genocide in Vietnam.  True, China is bad news for everybody, and worst for these nearby weak states, but in context of the previous superpower, its positively shy and retiring.

But the Americans had friends in all the right places in those times. Non-whites didn't count, so they didn't worry about it. I can't imagine China's plan to act dickish towards SE Asia, India, Japan and the US is going to end that well.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2011, 08:43:04 PM »

Is there anybody here who knows enough about Southeast Asian history and geopolitics to give me a brief rundown of where the various claims on the Spratly and Parasol Islands actually come from? I know that they're some of the most contested areas on Earth but I've never understood why exactly.
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specific_name
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2011, 11:54:20 PM »

In fairness, at a similar stage in its development, the US was seizing the Philippines from Spain, along with Cuba and Puerto Rico - expansionism far afield - and a little later on was doing a genocide in Vietnam.  True, China is bad news for everybody, and worst for these nearby weak states, but in context of the previous superpower, its positively shy and retiring.

China is walking loudly and carrying a small stick. I don't think their expansion is comparable. They're liable to get encircled before they can project force.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2011, 03:06:30 AM »

Toward who does China not act like a dick ?
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opebo
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2011, 04:10:21 AM »

In fairness, at a similar stage in its development, the US was seizing the Philippines from Spain, along with Cuba and Puerto Rico - expansionism far afield - and a little later on was doing a genocide in Vietnam.  True, China is bad news for everybody, and worst for these nearby weak states, but in context of the previous superpower, its positively shy and retiring.

But the Americans had friends in all the right places in those times. Non-whites didn't count, so they didn't worry about it. I can't imagine China's plan to act dickish towards SE Asia, India, Japan and the US is going to end that well.

China is walking loudly and carrying a small stick. I don't think their expansion is comparable. They're liable to get encircled before they can project force.

Well, perhaps the end result of this small expansionist feint will be not much at all, given, as you point out, the lack of real power and the level of opposition from various quarters.
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Verily
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2011, 07:54:49 AM »

Toward who does China not act like a dick ?

Various developing, particularly African, countries.

It's only a matter of time. Maybe not even a matter of time, given that the Chinese companies and government, when operating in those areas, tend to import their own workers instead of hiring the locals. Not sure Zimbabwe is going to be happy about having all of its farmworkers be Chinese twenty years from now.
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dead0man
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2011, 09:23:54 PM »

Anything but whitey!
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phk
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2011, 11:05:22 PM »


This actually holds some truth to it.

Lots of people in Africa, Asia, Middle East prefer China to the US.
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Beet
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2011, 11:24:27 PM »

Unfortunately sometimes "Chinese foreign policy" is nothing but a bunch of overnationalistic US-hating internet posters and the CPC responding to them for populistic reasons. Everyone talks about Chinese democracy but don't assume that liberals like Ai Weiwei, Lu Xiaobo or Wen Jiabao would win the elections. It's just as likely to be some fascist.

With that being said China has historically not been all that aggressive. In the past 60 years it has fought 3 wars, all along its land border; in the past 30 years it has fought none. Before that Chinese history mostly consisted of getting invaded by 'barbarians'; absorbing the invaders into Chinese civilization, before getting invaded again by another group of 'barbarians' even less 'civilized' than the last group. Manchus, Mongolians, Khitans, Jurchens, Uighurs, and so and so on.
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Foucaulf
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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2011, 01:41:30 AM »

Toward who does China not act like a dick ?

Pakistan.

Everyone talks about Chinese democracy but don't assume that liberals like Ai Weiwei, Lu Xiaobo or Wen Jiabao would win the elections. It's just as likely to be some fascist.

It's odd of you to refer to Wen Jiabao as a "liberal", comparable with those Chinese who were fed on European values. He's usually referred to as a "populist", as if other CPC politicians weren't; more accurate would be to refer to him as a reformer, a member of those Chinese politicians who sees the CPC to either evolve or perish. He's telling the world everything he wants to say before he's swept out of power come 2012.

With that being said China has historically not been all that aggressive. In the past 60 years it has fought 3 wars, all along its land border; in the past 30 years it has fought none. Before that Chinese history mostly consisted of getting invaded by 'barbarians'; absorbing the invaders into Chinese civilization, before getting invaded again by another group of 'barbarians' even less 'civilized' than the last group. Manchus, Mongolians, Khitans, Jurchens, Uighurs, and so and so on.

China has been too busy displaying aggression to its own people in the past 90 years to worry about foreign powers. Such has been the case and will be in the short run.

Any Chinese will defend these island claims as "taking back what is ours". The relevant part of Chinese history wrt to the claims is the European dismemberment of China. The revanchist attitudes that followed it was the modus operandi behind reclaiming Hong Kong, Macau and all the little islands. Certainly no Chinese are complaining about the stalemate. If the Chinese can't have these islands' resources or surrounding water rights, then no one will.

Keep in mind that Northern Vietnam has been intermittently been controlled by China, meaning the islands battle is a proxy regarding the extent of China's sphere of influence.
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Beet
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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2011, 02:12:37 AM »

It's odd of you to refer to Wen Jiabao as a "liberal"

No, it's not "odd". It's conventional and boring. Lots of sources refer to him as a liberal, mostly conventional and boring sources. And he's comparable enough with the other two in the context that I was referring.

90 years is a flash in the pan, however interesting. For 4,000 years, although certainly aggressive, Imperial China showed remarkably little in both appetite and conquest in the realm of power projection, while most ancient empires conquered areas well beyond their ethnic homeland and often defined themselves by their military prowess (Roman legions?). In contrast, Imperial China's record, particularly those Dynasties led by ethnic Han (as opposed to Mongols or Manchus) has largely been one of military defeat and incompetence. Their strength lay not in their ability to win battles or resist invaders militarily but to endure as a civilization and assimilate its conquerers. One could certainly argue that this was an accident of geography; but then again the geography has hardly changed.
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Sbane
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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2011, 11:28:48 AM »

How relevant is it to compare ancient Chinese dynasties to the current communist party?
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GMantis
Dessie Potter
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 03:23:17 PM »

In fairness, at a similar stage in its development, the US was seizing the Philippines from Spain, along with Cuba and Puerto Rico - expansionism far afield - and a little later on was doing a genocide in Vietnam.  True, China is bad news for everybody, and worst for these nearby weak states, but in context of the previous superpower, its positively shy and retiring.

But the Americans had friends in all the right places in those times. Non-whites didn't count, so they didn't worry about it. I can't imagine China's plan to act dickish towards SE Asia, India, Japan and the US is going to end that well.
How does China act dickish against India?

That would be a somewhat sensible remark if Europeans hadn't colonized most of the world. Not so much in reality.
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Sbane
sbane
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2011, 02:46:02 PM »

India and China have a bunch of border disputes plus they built a dam on a river that flows through India and Bangladesh in defiance of the protests of the Indian government. And China likes to dictate terms in these disputes, as seen in the OP. I just don't know if they have the strength to dictate terms to everyone everywhere. Not to mention even strong nations need friends.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2011, 10:02:14 PM »

Vietnam has decided to its own saber-rattling:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13727822

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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2011, 11:50:14 PM »

How relevant is it to compare ancient Chinese dynasties to the current communist party?

It's extremely relevant. The Party almost openly (but not explicitly) fashions itself as just another of the long list of dynasties. Dynasties come and go, yet the implicit values have not changed in over two thousand years.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2011, 11:15:19 AM »

Edward Said would have a heart attack at the way this thread's gone.  Everything's there: the "essential unchanging" Chinese, the use of Medieval and even earlier history as a lens to look at "China," which is treated as a continuous, single entity over time...it's actually worse than many of the Middle East threads on that front.
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opebo
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2011, 01:21:15 PM »

India and China have a bunch of border disputes plus they built a dam on a river that flows through India and Bangladesh in defiance of the protests of the Indian government. And China likes to dictate terms in these disputes, as seen in the OP. I just don't know if they have the strength to dictate terms to everyone everywhere. Not to mention even strong nations need friends.

India and China are almost destined to end up on opposite sides - for one thing their relative sizes and proximity tend towards competition.  In other words India is too big and too potentially powerful for China to simply dominate (as it very likely may come to do with the Southeast Asian countries, alas).  India's interests (and presumably Japans) will be to try to involve the US in a close containment-style alliance against China.  Additionally India and China's economic roles are adversarial, in a way that, say Australia or even Thailand's are not (those are complementary). 

One final factor to mention is the very deep cultural divide which separates Indians from East Asians - I once attended a conference where most of the attendees were either Indian or Chinese, and the hostility between the two groups was hilarious.  The Chinese would pompously (and badly) lecture away on their topics, almost reading their papers aloud, and then react in utter shock when the Indians in the audience disputed every little thing they said, in real argumentative style.  They'd obviously no experience with such questioning.  I enjoyed watching the Indians poke at the fuming Chinese with little smirks on their faces, waggling their heads from side to side.

Interestingly most Southeast Asians despise Indians, while they admire Chinese.. the reasons are probably due mainly to this cultural gulf.  Thais constantly harp on their prejudice that Indians 'smell bad' (meaning B.O.), but never mention the horrific bad breath from the Chinese quarter (which to my mind is far worse).
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Sbane
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2011, 02:54:15 AM »

India and China have a bunch of border disputes plus they built a dam on a river that flows through India and Bangladesh in defiance of the protests of the Indian government. And China likes to dictate terms in these disputes, as seen in the OP. I just don't know if they have the strength to dictate terms to everyone everywhere. Not to mention even strong nations need friends.

India and China are almost destined to end up on opposite sides - for one thing their relative sizes and proximity tend towards competition.  In other words India is too big and too potentially powerful for China to simply dominate (as it very likely may come to do with the Southeast Asian countries, alas).  India's interests (and presumably Japans) will be to try to involve the US in a close containment-style alliance against China.  Additionally India and China's economic roles are adversarial, in a way that, say Australia or even Thailand's are not (those are complementary). 

One final factor to mention is the very deep cultural divide which separates Indians from East Asians - I once attended a conference where most of the attendees were either Indian or Chinese, and the hostility between the two groups was hilarious.  The Chinese would pompously (and badly) lecture away on their topics, almost reading their papers aloud, and then react in utter shock when the Indians in the audience disputed every little thing they said, in real argumentative style.  They'd obviously no experience with such questioning.  I enjoyed watching the Indians poke at the fuming Chinese with little smirks on their faces, waggling their heads from side to side.

Interestingly most Southeast Asians despise Indians, while they admire Chinese.. the reasons are probably due mainly to this cultural gulf.  Thais constantly harp on their prejudice that Indians 'smell bad' (meaning B.O.), but never mention the horrific bad breath from the Chinese quarter (which to my mind is far worse).

It's not surprising that Japan has been cultivating very close relations with India for a while now. A containment strategy is likely what will be used, but it would also need to include the Australians and Southeast Asia.

I am not sure how much economics will be a factor. I don't think India and China's economies are more adversarial than any other two countries. There is a lot of growth in trade between the two countries. Power is the issue at hand, not economic factors imo.

And you are absolutely right that SE Asia will probably choose China over India if it ever came to that. China has had a close trading relationship with these countries for centuries and beyond. There's lots of Chinese who even live in these countries. India on the other hand (or at least the Tamils) were colonists in SE Asia. Those tensions still exist to this day.

Basically the topography of the Indian Ocean as well as the Himalayas cleanly demark the difference between east Asia and the subcontinent of India. India and China may continue to fight along the Himalayan crest but both countries aren't stupid enough to cross those borders, I don't think. China may think places like Assam or Meghalaya might want to join with them because they look similar, but they would be mistaken. The Brahmaputra river valley is most certainly very "Indian".
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