Hamas leader is killed

[dunn]

Hamas=Al Qaeda
Yasin=Bin Laden

[dunn]

To clarify, sheik is a fairly generic Arabic tital, not a name; Yassin's first name wa in fact Ahmed.

If they could, siege, they would. Tourism Minister Rechavam Ze'evi remains the only Israeli govt figure murdered by targeted killing in a 3.5 year so far intifada, however, so it seems unlikely that they have these capabilities.

In fact, historically terrorists have been less, not more, effective immediately after strong Israeli reprisals, and most grimly successful after 2-3 month lulls and Israeli withdrawals/ negotiations.

true

[dunn]

Seige seemed to assume sheik was his name.

Gustaf, Hamas is a major PLO member, as are Islamic Jihad-Palestine, PFLP-GC, and many others noxious terrorist groups. I assume you meant the PA, the recognized pseudo-independent Palestinian government, and its "police" militias. The definition between these two institutions is somewhat blurry, as Arafat leads both, but the PLO is, and only claims to be, a terrorist umbrella group, while the PA is semi-legitimate (long as you don't worry about things like democracy and accountability.)

M
I just wish most Americans and europeans would have known the matirial the way you know it.

[dunn]

 I am more and more thinking that the best thing is to pull out of the occupied territories altogether,

Though that might be a solution this are not 'occupied territories' but a land 2 groups of people claim. It us the historical Hartland of the jews, It has a vast majority af arabs now.
Jordan anexed the west bank in 48' and no country but Pakistan accepeted it 'de Jure'. in 67w they attaced Israel that hold this teritory since

[dunn]

That does seem to be a fairly sensible solution, but it is much easier said than done.

Everything always is...

But I do think that if Israel got out of the occupied territories and removed their colonies there, it would help them a lot, both in the eyes of the world and security wise (less to worry about). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main reason for the occupation was to make it easier to protect agianst attacks from Arab sattes? Seeing as that is now much less likely I think getting out makes some sense.

no
read my earlier post

[dunn]

How about this: Israel keeps all the Golan Heights, part's of West Bank and all of East Jerusalem.
Palestine get's: Gaza, Most of the West Bank... and the Negev area (as a trade off for E. Jerusalem).

Jordan should give most of the East Bank

I will grab it, Barak offerd Arafat better deal and Arafat started the 2nd Intifadah

[dunn]

Kick some ass Israel

Hopefully not yours...

That´s the problem with "selective attacks" -who does the selection? Even if this time they really killed a terrorist (and even ignoring the obvious consequences this will have in any peace process for years), I can´t agree with giving any state a free hand to kill whoever it wants. Especially if a war criminal runs that state...

BTW, I wouldn´t be surprised if this conflict lasted for decades. Unless some secular values replace the dogmatic-religious ones that currently prevail in both sides, the problem won´t be solved by any compromise about which territories belong to Israel and which to Palestine. I don´t see the mindsets there ready to accept this kind of pragmatic solution to the problem. But I don´t foresee a bright future for atheism there...

who are you to call a democratic elected prime minister a war criminal. and If you reffer to Sabra&SHatila those were christians arabs killing muslims Arabs.

[dunn]

Israel is completely dominated by religious values? You are clearly confused about this. Israel's Jews are about 60% secular, 20% somewhat observant, and only 20% very observant. A major party and one of Sharon's coaltion partners, Shinui, is a specifically secularist, anti-religious party. The parties of the Left are generally secularist, and and Likud, Ichud Le'umi, and even Mafdal are not religious so much as nationalist. The specifically religious parties currently have a grand total of 14 of 120 Knesset seats.

As for dogmatic, what has Israel not tried? War, peace, occupation, withdrawal, negotiation at gunpoint and in luxury at European palaces, American mediation, European mediation, you name it.

Sabra and Shatila, as dunn points out, was a massacre by Lebanese Christians of Palestinian Muslims. no Israelis or Jews were involved. Or are you trying to pin Jenin massace on him, because that was a battle, not a massacre, just like Deir Yassin was.

Who does the selection? The best intelligence services in the world, buddy: the Mossad and ShinBet.

Innocents are always killed in wars. That's what makes them so ugly and something that one should avoid unless necessary.

that is true

[dunn]

Well, it was about %@*#&^! time. After the past four years, I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians will never genuinely try to sign a peace treaty with Israel. There's too much bigoted hatred on their side for that. And the Palis can't be trusted to abide by any agreement they sign anyway - witness the last 10 years.

That being said, I think, for their own security, Israel needs to withdraw most of the settlements - mainly the isolated small ones run by religious-nationalist nuts who want to engage in ethnic cleansing. The large, suburban-in-nature settlements (like, err, Ariel?) should be annexed, in addition to the Golan Heights (screw the Syrians) and East Jerusalem. In return, give up Gaza (does Israel really want it...it's a total pit!) and most of the West Bank. Basically, I believe the Israeli Ministry of Defense has a plan which does this with a minimum of population exchange. The Palis would get about 85% of the West Bank as one contiguous lump. And there should DEFINITELY be a wall/fence along the entire length of the border. I'd stop letting the Palis in as workers, too - let them, in their new independent state, deal with their own problems, and not export them like, say, Mexico does.

Withdraw, fortify, and ignore the rest of the M-E as much as possible...

Amen
Barak offerd more, Arafat started a war

[dunn]

Mostly I like Realpolitik's idea, but it would be a sliver of the Negev, at most as large as Gaza itself. Soem parts of the Negev are Jewish or pro-Israel Bedouin, and Be'er Sheva and Eilat are large, 95+% Jewish cities.

They could Israeli enclaves (like Kaliningrad). But I would prefer Jordan to donate the East Bank...

Amen

[dunn]

I'll try a few maps soon...

Orignlly the british Mandat was on the entire land of Israel (Palestine). 77% was given to king Abdullah (great grandfather of current King) to form trans jordan (now jordan). Iraq was created for his brother king Feisal. the reson: the hadhemite lost to the Sauds in the big tribal fight in Arabia, the looseres were the freind of the british.
Jordan has 70% palestians and it is 77% from greater Palestine.

[dunn]

I'll try a few maps soon...

Orignlly the british Mandat was on the entire land of Israel (Palestine). 77% was given to king Abdullah (great grandfather of current King) to form trans jordan (now jordan). Iraq was created for his brother king Feisal. the reson: the hadhemite lost to the Sauds in the big tribal fight in Arabia, the looseres were the freind of the british.
Jordan has 70% palestians and it is 77% from greater Palestine.

I thought the Palestinian population was about 50% of Jordan? And that it fell some when the Jordanians kicked them out in the 70s.

It did fell after black september (1970) when Arafat tried to over throw Hussein. Israel, Us and Uk helped Hussein instead of restore ithe mistakes of post WW1. I will check the numbers but I'm sure it's closer to 70% then 50%

[dunn]

And there should DEFINITELY be a wall/fence along the entire length of the border. I'd stop letting the Palis in as workers, too - let them, in their new independent state, deal with their own problems, and not export them like, say, Mexico does.

Now I realise why we are 8 points apart in the libertarian/authoritarian scale...

Yep.  Note that I'm closer to the center than you are. I also took the Political Quiz Show, and ended up at 25, a little bit right-of-center...

I don't think, after all the civilian Israeli noncombatants that the Palis *deliberately* killed (often by using Israel's desire for cheap labor) that the Palis have any *right* to enter Israel proper. It takes quite a twisted outlook to, as the Palis do, simultaneously call for the destruction of Israel and ALSO complain that Israel doesn't let them in to work...  

And given how effective the wall/fence has been in preventing Pali suicide bombers, damn straight the Israelis need it!

Sometimes it´s better to be apart from the centre... Or what the creators of the quiz regard as "the centre".

Israel has killed many civilians too. In fact, it´s a country that´s violated more UN resolutions in the last decades than, say, Iraq... I´m against the wall, but I realise why many people support it. But you seem to endorse a wall dividing Mexico from the US, and I don´t see the point there.

in regards to the wall issue, they put up a fence around one area, I forget where and it stopped suicide bombers entirely.

exectly

[dunn]

was it in Gaza the fence stopped suicide bombers entirely dunn? I am not as good on this area as you are.

yes
but the palestians try missels from above, tunnels from bwloe and coming through the sea. 99% we succeed in stoping them

[dunn]

Sometimes it´s better to be apart from the centre... Or what the creators of the quiz regard as "the centre".

Israel has killed many civilians too. In fact, it´s a country that´s violated more UN resolutions in the last decades than, say, Iraq... I´m against the wall, but I realise why many people support it. But you seem to endorse a wall dividing Mexico from the US, and I don´t see the point there.

Nah, it's better in the center.

Innocent civvies? Or people actively assisting in terrorist activities? Think about that one. And as for the UN Resolutions, well that's because *deep breath* the UN is dominated by a bunch of bigoted, anti-democratic s whose appetite for hypocrisy knows no bounds! Where are the UN resolutions condemning the Iraqi massacres of the Kurds, or the Shona massacres of the Ndebele in Zimbabwe, or ANYTHING Idi Amin ever did in Uganda, or any of the other multitudinous slaughters and repression that SO make Third World life exciting? Where were they when Hispanic Guatemalans massacred 150,000+ Mayans in the 1970's and 1980's? Where were they when Bhutan ethnically cleansed Nepalese in the 1990's? Where have they been in regards to Burma/Myanmar all these years?

I'll tell you: they were busy condemning Israel for killing one person.

As for the Mexico issue...there is NO real border control on the U.S.-Mexican border, only a porous sponge. And I don't think that's a good thing...but that's a topic for another day. Go read Samuel Huntington's latest article in Foreign Policy for a look at this issue...

Amen