Hamas leader is killed

[Gustaf]

Israel is completely dominated by religious values? You are clearly confused about this. Israel's Jews are about 60% secular, 20% somewhat observant, and only 20% very observant. A major party and one of Sharon's coaltion partners, Shinui, is a specifically secularist, anti-religious party. The parties of the Left are generally secularist, and and Likud, Ichud Le'umi, and even Mafdal are not religious so much as nationalist. The specifically religious parties currently have a grand total of 14 of 120 Knesset seats.

As for dogmatic, what has Israel not tried? War, peace, occupation, withdrawal, negotiation at gunpoint and in luxury at European palaces, American mediation, European mediation, you name it.

Sabra and Shatila, as dunn points out, was a massacre by Lebanese Christians of Palestinian Muslims. no Israelis or Jews were involved. Or are you trying to pin Jenin massace on him, because that was a battle, not a massacre, just like Deir Yassin was.

Who does the selection? The best intelligence services in the world, buddy: the Mossad and ShinBet.

Innocents are always killed in wars. That's what makes them so ugly and something that one should avoid unless necessary.

[dunn]

Israel is completely dominated by religious values? You are clearly confused about this. Israel's Jews are about 60% secular, 20% somewhat observant, and only 20% very observant. A major party and one of Sharon's coaltion partners, Shinui, is a specifically secularist, anti-religious party. The parties of the Left are generally secularist, and and Likud, Ichud Le'umi, and even Mafdal are not religious so much as nationalist. The specifically religious parties currently have a grand total of 14 of 120 Knesset seats.

As for dogmatic, what has Israel not tried? War, peace, occupation, withdrawal, negotiation at gunpoint and in luxury at European palaces, American mediation, European mediation, you name it.

Sabra and Shatila, as dunn points out, was a massacre by Lebanese Christians of Palestinian Muslims. no Israelis or Jews were involved. Or are you trying to pin Jenin massace on him, because that was a battle, not a massacre, just like Deir Yassin was.

Who does the selection? The best intelligence services in the world, buddy: the Mossad and ShinBet.

Innocents are always killed in wars. That's what makes them so ugly and something that one should avoid unless necessary.

that is true

[© tweed]

The killing of Sheik may just make the Palestinians even angrier...

[M]

For the last time, his name was not sheik!

[WMS]

Well, it was about %@*#&^! time. After the past four years, I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians will never genuinely try to sign a peace treaty with Israel. There's too much bigoted hatred on their side for that. And the Palis can't be trusted to abide by any agreement they sign anyway - witness the last 10 years.

That being said, I think, for their own security, Israel needs to withdraw most of the settlements - mainly the isolated small ones run by religious-nationalist nuts who want to engage in ethnic cleansing. The large, suburban-in-nature settlements (like, err, Ariel?) should be annexed, in addition to the Golan Heights (screw the Syrians) and East Jerusalem. In return, give up Gaza (does Israel really want it...it's a total pit!) and most of the West Bank. Basically, I believe the Israeli Ministry of Defense has a plan which does this with a minimum of population exchange. The Palis would get about 85% of the West Bank as one contiguous lump. And there should DEFINITELY be a wall/fence along the entire length of the border. I'd stop letting the Palis in as workers, too - let them, in their new independent state, deal with their own problems, and not export them like, say, Mexico does.

Withdraw, fortify, and ignore the rest of the M-E as much as possible...

[dunn]

Well, it was about %@*#&^! time. After the past four years, I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians will never genuinely try to sign a peace treaty with Israel. There's too much bigoted hatred on their side for that. And the Palis can't be trusted to abide by any agreement they sign anyway - witness the last 10 years.

That being said, I think, for their own security, Israel needs to withdraw most of the settlements - mainly the isolated small ones run by religious-nationalist nuts who want to engage in ethnic cleansing. The large, suburban-in-nature settlements (like, err, Ariel?) should be annexed, in addition to the Golan Heights (screw the Syrians) and East Jerusalem. In return, give up Gaza (does Israel really want it...it's a total pit!) and most of the West Bank. Basically, I believe the Israeli Ministry of Defense has a plan which does this with a minimum of population exchange. The Palis would get about 85% of the West Bank as one contiguous lump. And there should DEFINITELY be a wall/fence along the entire length of the border. I'd stop letting the Palis in as workers, too - let them, in their new independent state, deal with their own problems, and not export them like, say, Mexico does.

Withdraw, fortify, and ignore the rest of the M-E as much as possible...

Amen
Barak offerd more, Arafat started a war

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Mostly I like Realpolitik's idea, but it would be a sliver of the Negev, at most as large as Gaza itself. Soem parts of the Negev are Jewish or pro-Israel Bedouin, and Be'er Sheva and Eilat are large, 95+% Jewish cities.

They could Israeli enclaves (like Kaliningrad). But I would prefer Jordan to donate the East Bank...

[dunn]

Mostly I like Realpolitik's idea, but it would be a sliver of the Negev, at most as large as Gaza itself. Soem parts of the Negev are Jewish or pro-Israel Bedouin, and Be'er Sheva and Eilat are large, 95+% Jewish cities.

They could Israeli enclaves (like Kaliningrad). But I would prefer Jordan to donate the East Bank...

Amen

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'll try a few maps soon...

[dunn]

I'll try a few maps soon...

Orignlly the british Mandat was on the entire land of Israel (Palestine). 77% was given to king Abdullah (great grandfather of current King) to form trans jordan (now jordan). Iraq was created for his brother king Feisal. the reson: the hadhemite lost to the Sauds in the big tribal fight in Arabia, the looseres were the freind of the british.
Jordan has 70% palestians and it is 77% from greater Palestine.

[Gustaf]

I'll try a few maps soon...

Orignlly the british Mandat was on the entire land of Israel (Palestine). 77% was given to king Abdullah (great grandfather of current King) to form trans jordan (now jordan). Iraq was created for his brother king Feisal. the reson: the hadhemite lost to the Sauds in the big tribal fight in Arabia, the looseres were the freind of the british.
Jordan has 70% palestians and it is 77% from greater Palestine.

I thought the Palestinian population was about 50% of Jordan? And that it fell some when the Jordanians kicked them out in the 70s.

[dunn]

I'll try a few maps soon...

Orignlly the british Mandat was on the entire land of Israel (Palestine). 77% was given to king Abdullah (great grandfather of current King) to form trans jordan (now jordan). Iraq was created for his brother king Feisal. the reson: the hadhemite lost to the Sauds in the big tribal fight in Arabia, the looseres were the freind of the british.
Jordan has 70% palestians and it is 77% from greater Palestine.

I thought the Palestinian population was about 50% of Jordan? And that it fell some when the Jordanians kicked them out in the 70s.

It did fell after black september (1970) when Arafat tried to over throw Hussein. Israel, Us and Uk helped Hussein instead of restore ithe mistakes of post WW1. I will check the numbers but I'm sure it's closer to 70% then 50%

[M]

Syrian tanks intervened and seized at least 1/3 of Jordan. But, they were painted in PLO colors, and were claimed to be PLO tanks with Syrian volunteers or something ridiculous like that. And, of course, they were actually Soviet tanks.

[YoMartin]

Israel is completely dominated by religious values? You are clearly confused about this. Israel's Jews are about 60% secular, 20% somewhat observant, and only 20% very observant. A major party and one of Sharon's coaltion partners, Shinui, is a specifically secularist, anti-religious party. The parties of the Left are generally secularist, and and Likud, Ichud Le'umi, and even Mafdal are not religious so much as nationalist. The specifically religious parties currently have a grand total of 14 of 120 Knesset seats.

As for dogmatic, what has Israel not tried? War, peace, occupation, withdrawal, negotiation at gunpoint and in luxury at European palaces, American mediation, European mediation, you name it.

Sabra and Shatila, as dunn points out, was a massacre by Lebanese Christians of Palestinian Muslims. no Israelis or Jews were involved. Or are you trying to pin Jenin massace on him, because that was a battle, not a massacre, just like Deir Yassin was.

Who does the selection? The best intelligence services in the world, buddy: the Mossad and ShinBet.

Israel is not a secular country. There´s not even civil marriage, only religious one! Yes, the Shinui is a liberal-secular party, but it got... 12% of the vote... Even the existence of a party almost exclusively based on a secular agenda shows that the country is currently not secular... Only in 2003 -after 40 years!- Israel had a government without Ultra-orthodox parties (which still receive substantial state funding for their various organisations).

I´m not sure is Sharon is a war criminal or not. But, as Human Rights Watch (not Yasser Arafat) stated, “There is abundant evidence that war crimes and crimes against humanity were committed on a wide scale in the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, but to date, not a single individual has been brought to justice. President Bush should urge Prime Minister Sharon to cooperate with any investigation.” If he cooperated with the investigations, he could clean his name... or maybe not... So far, investigations say he could be guilty: "The Kahan Commission (named after the President of the Israeli Supreme Court) that investigated the massacre in 1983 concluded that “Minister of Defense [Sharon] bears personal responsibility” and should “draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office.” The commission recommended that Prime Minister Menachem Begin remove Sharon from office if he did not resign".  Even the US envoy back then (1982) told the BBC that after the killings began he cabled Defense Minister Sharon, telling him, “You must stop the slaughter…. The situation is absolutely appalling. They are killing children. You have the field completely under your control and are therefore responsible for that area.” So, let´s not discharge the allegations so quickly: Sharon had personal and political responsability about the actions of the Phalangists. Yes, they were Lebanese, but Sharon was in charge and let the massacre happen!

Maybe the Mossad is the best secret service in the world -not really sure, however, I live in a city that suffered two devastating attacks in jewish institutions. But still, it´s not a question about efficiency. It´s a question of how much discretionary power are we willing to give to (any) state. I believe in accountabilty, separation of powers, checks and balances, rule of law... I know international affairs work differently than national levels, but that´s no reason to give any state the right to kill whoever it finds undesirable. In that case, I would even prefer an inefficient state...

[YoMartin]

And there should DEFINITELY be a wall/fence along the entire length of the border. I'd stop letting the Palis in as workers, too - let them, in their new independent state, deal with their own problems, and not export them like, say, Mexico does.

Now I realise why we are 8 points apart in the libertarian/authoritarian scale...

[M]

The Mossad is not charged with protecting Jewish Institutions Worldwide, only the state of Israel. Really it shows the weakness of Argentine security services, the reach of Hezbollah and Iranian terror, or, some would say, Menem's ties to certain unsavory Islamic figures.

[YoMartin]

The Mossad is not charged with protecting Jewish Institutions Worldwide, only the state of Israel. Really it shows the weakness of Argentine security services, the reach of Hezbollah and Iranian terror, or, some would say, Menem's ties to certain unsavory Islamic figures.

I think any secret service tries to protect its own embassies (the legal responsability belongs to Argentine authorities, but I´m sure they have some agents in a city that has one of the largest jewish communities in the world), or to investigate better than what they did here. But, againl, I´m not questioning the efficiency of Mossad, I´m just saying that no government should have the right to eliminate people according to its likes and dislikes.

[M]

Governments should not have the right to kill random people. But remember, this is several hundred body bags later. And it will most likely end up saving lives in the long run. This is the same reason I think Truman was right to nuke Japan, and Chamberlain was wrong to start the war early. In the long run, this would have saved lives.

[WMS]

And there should DEFINITELY be a wall/fence along the entire length of the border. I'd stop letting the Palis in as workers, too - let them, in their new independent state, deal with their own problems, and not export them like, say, Mexico does.

Now I realise why we are 8 points apart in the libertarian/authoritarian scale...

Yep.  Note that I'm closer to the center than you are. I also took the Political Quiz Show, and ended up at 25, a little bit right-of-center...

I don't think, after all the civilian Israeli noncombatants that the Palis *deliberately* killed (often by using Israel's desire for cheap labor) that the Palis have any *right* to enter Israel proper. It takes quite a twisted outlook to, as the Palis do, simultaneously call for the destruction of Israel and ALSO complain that Israel doesn't let them in to work...  

And given how effective the wall/fence has been in preventing Pali suicide bombers, damn straight the Israelis need it!

[opebo]

I'm sure you've all seen this before, but the 'spiritual leader' of Hamas, Scheyk (English spelling?) Yassin, was killed yesterday by Israeli forces...and it seems to have triggered a new rise in activity on both sides. Though I suppose we should all be happy to see him go, a more imortant question might be how this will affect the peace process. Any thoughts?

It makes the final, necessary fight-to-the-death between the two peoples that much closer.  I like it.

You like the fact that a lot of people will die? That's pretty disgusting...

On the issue, it seems likely that the spiral of violence will just keep on going...at least fighting Hamas is better than fighting the PLO, if Hamas were wiped out things would be a lot easier.

No, I like the fact that the issue will be resolved.

[Gustaf]

I'm sure you've all seen this before, but the 'spiritual leader' of Hamas, Scheyk (English spelling?) Yassin, was killed yesterday by Israeli forces...and it seems to have triggered a new rise in activity on both sides. Though I suppose we should all be happy to see him go, a more imortant question might be how this will affect the peace process. Any thoughts?

It makes the final, necessary fight-to-the-death between the two peoples that much closer.  I like it.

You like the fact that a lot of people will die? That's pretty disgusting...

On the issue, it seems likely that the spiral of violence will just keep on going...at least fighting Hamas is better than fighting the PLO, if Hamas were wiped out things would be a lot easier.

No, I like the fact that the issue will be resolved.

It won't. Sure, if one side, persumably the ISraelis, killed all Palestinians, but I don't see that happening. I think Israel is too civilized for the kind of ethnic cleansing that it would take. And it's hardly doable anyway. Not even in places like Rwanda did wars actualyl resolve the conflict.

[Gustaf]

The Mossad is not charged with protecting Jewish Institutions Worldwide, only the state of Israel. Really it shows the weakness of Argentine security services, the reach of Hezbollah and Iranian terror, or, some would say, Menem's ties to certain unsavory Islamic figures.

I think any secret service tries to protect its own embassies (the legal responsability belongs to Argentine authorities, but I´m sure they have some agents in a city that has one of the largest jewish communities in the world), or to investigate better than what they did here. But, againl, I´m not questioning the efficiency of Mossad, I´m just saying that no government should have the right to eliminate people according to its likes and dislikes.

Most countries have a security service (BSS in Britain for example) to protect the country against terrorists, etc and an intelligence service to gather intelligence. The latter, SIS, CIA, KGB, Mossad, BND, etc are usually more famous. Some also have military intelligence services, such as DIA, GRU and so on.

[YoMartin]

Governments should not have the right to kill random people. But remember, this is several hundred body bags later. And it will most likely end up saving lives in the long run. This is the same reason I think Truman was right to nuke Japan, and Chamberlain was wrong to start the war early. In the long run, this would have saved lives.

I don´t think this will save lives, quite the contrary. It´s a dangerous precedent. Like many laws that are being passed in different countries.

[YoMartin]

And there should DEFINITELY be a wall/fence along the entire length of the border. I'd stop letting the Palis in as workers, too - let them, in their new independent state, deal with their own problems, and not export them like, say, Mexico does.

Now I realise why we are 8 points apart in the libertarian/authoritarian scale...

Yep.  Note that I'm closer to the center than you are. I also took the Political Quiz Show, and ended up at 25, a little bit right-of-center...

I don't think, after all the civilian Israeli noncombatants that the Palis *deliberately* killed (often by using Israel's desire for cheap labor) that the Palis have any *right* to enter Israel proper. It takes quite a twisted outlook to, as the Palis do, simultaneously call for the destruction of Israel and ALSO complain that Israel doesn't let them in to work...  

And given how effective the wall/fence has been in preventing Pali suicide bombers, damn straight the Israelis need it!

Sometimes it´s better to be apart from the centre... Or what the creators of the quiz regard as "the centre".

Israel has killed many civilians too. In fact, it´s a country that´s violated more UN resolutions in the last decades than, say, Iraq... I´m against the wall, but I realise why many people support it. But you seem to endorse a wall dividing Mexico from the US, and I don´t see the point there.

[opebo]

I'm sure you've all seen this before, but the 'spiritual leader' of Hamas, Scheyk (English spelling?) Yassin, was killed yesterday by Israeli forces...and it seems to have triggered a new rise in activity on both sides. Though I suppose we should all be happy to see him go, a more imortant question might be how this will affect the peace process. Any thoughts?

It makes the final, necessary fight-to-the-death between the two peoples that much closer.  I like it.

You like the fact that a lot of people will die? That's pretty disgusting...

On the issue, it seems likely that the spiral of violence will just keep on going...at least fighting Hamas is better than fighting the PLO, if Hamas were wiped out things would be a lot easier.

No, I like the fact that the issue will be resolved.

It won't. Sure, if one side, persumably the ISraelis, killed all Palestinians, but I don't see that happening. I think Israel is too civilized for the kind of ethnic cleansing that it would take. And it's hardly doable anyway. Not even in places like Rwanda did wars actualyl resolve the conflict.

Until one side either kills or demographically absorbs the other side there'll just be more of the same ongoing low level war.  If you think about the major political and cultural changes throughout history, they always involved quite a lot of genocide, or at least loss of much of the male population in war.