Côte d'Ivoire/Ivory Coast thread

[Nhoj]

This hasn't got attention here for a couple months, so I thought I would start up a new thread as things seem to be getting worse every day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12778001

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[dead0man]

uggg....good luck good people of Côte d'Ivoire

[Nhoj]

"Ivory Coast: Ecowas wants more UN action on Gbagbo"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12853554

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Côte d'Ivoire! not Ivory Coast

Well, yes, it turned very slowly in something more and more nasty and that could become still more in the future.

In the beginning mmost of violences would have been commited by different kinds of pro Gbagbo forces, but step by step now it's from both sides. In Abobo, big pro Ouattara district of Abidjan pro Gbagbo do less street fights and kidnappings but now they shell homes, and on the other side, for example, pro Ouattara commited things like burning alive some people about which they had some doubts, like some foreigners.

So much things that make more and more refugees within the country and in bordering countries, especially Liberia, UN assess that their number could reach soon 1 million, several thousands have anyways fled Abidjan during the 2 last months, and Liberia would have also already welcomed several thousands.

During the last days, Blé Goudé has apparently started to excite young crowds to fight for Gbagbo again and started a 'recruiting campaign' to 'recruit' the maximum of partisan in the army. According to some observers Gbagbo would have kept enough money to arm some people, beside the part of the regular army that would remain faithful to him, and without speaking of eventual foreign mercenaries (a growing job nowadays...).

On the ground, Ouattara forces decided to stop to wait and to take power by force now, for a few days they past the 'border' within the country and began to seriously conquer cities toward the south, notably some strategical ones. Soro, Ouattara's PM, chief of the Northern Rebellion in the 2000s, just gave an interview to France24 from the march, they have just reached the capital Yamousoukro today, they don't control it yet though, and don't know whether there will be resistance, they call for people to rally them. According to him, so far, they didn't meet much resistance from populations since they have past the border. They want to continue their march toward the south and especially Abidjan. They give a few hours to Gbagbo to step down before they decide to continue their progression.

On the regional scale, seems Angola remains the big supporter of Gbagbo, I'm not sure how far that one is ready to go though, and what are the exact interest or reasons that motivate this strong support so far. Zuma seems to kinda support Gbagbo as well, but less staunchly apparently, not sure he would risk South Africa in something nasty. About 2 months ago, ECOWAS was apparently ready to military intervene mainly through Nigerian forces, they were going to ask the permission to UN but AU tried some new mediations and seem ready to enchain mediations over mediations, this kinda being a 'club of dictators' they may not be inclined to legitimate some process that would hunt one of them. In case it would turn bad for Gbagbo, one can hope that a country like Angola don't try to intervene, otherwise Nigeria could ask for force again, and here could go a regional war. The fact that the climate turns more and more nasty especially in Abidjan, and at least quite tense in some other parts of the country, also made that lots of foreigners precipitately left the country for neighboring countries to which they belong, which would add some instability in the region.

So, lots of hazardous perspectives so far, one thing is sure is that the climate is quite unsure, and that lots of things are possible. Other thing which seem to be quite sure, is that apparently lots of civilians in Côte d'Ivoire are tired of all these conflicts that last for years now, then maybe that less fuel for a big civil war. Just wish the best to people there.

[Nhoj]

Yeah I have always liked  Côte d'Ivoire better myself I should have probably used it but I was posting bbc articles. I think I have been able to edit the topic title to a satisfactory way. Or I could just go to Côte d'Ivoire only.

It looks like the new forces are also closing in on san pedro. Which I think actually voted for Ouattara ? I can't quite remember hashs map. but if the captured that they would have a port which could be useful.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

We're not far away, let's drop a few there, too.

[angus]

This hasn't got attention here for a couple months,

I noticed that as well.  for example, in the WaPo on-line today, under the Africa section there are five stories.  They are about Libya, Libya, Libya, Libya, and Sudan, respectively.  Thanks for the post.

The problem with UN sanctions is that they usually hurt the innocent, those at the bottom of the food chain, more than they hurt those intended targets.

[bgwah]

We're not far away, let's drop a few there, too.

Silly Gramps, they have no oil! The only thing black there is the people. Which means the West definitely doesn't care.

[Hash]

We're not far away, let's drop a few there, too.

Silly Gramps, they have no oil! The only thing black there is the people. Which means the West definitely doesn't care.

This is correct. Nobody cares about black people killing each other. Hell, nobody cares about them even when they're not killing each other.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

We're not far away, let's drop a few there, too.

Silly Gramps, they have no oil! The only thing black there is the people. Which means the West definitely doesn't care.

This is correct. Nobody cares about black people killing each other. Hell, nobody cares about them even when they're not killing each other.

Thanks bgwah and Hash.......yes, browns with oil trump blacks.......my bad.

[Insula Dei]

We're not far away, let's drop a few there, too.

Silly Gramps, they have no oil! The only thing black there is the people. Which means the West definitely doesn't care.

This is correct. Nobody cares about black people killing each other. Hell, nobody cares about them even when they're not killing each other.

Thanks bgwah and Hash.......yes, browns with oil trump blacks.......my bad.

Yes, now it's okay to not care about either. Yay!

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Yes, now it's okay to not care about either. Yay!

We can care all you want, but we're not the world's 911 dispatch center.

[Hash]

ftr, here's the map of the runoff:

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Yes, now it's okay to not care about either. Yay!

We can care all you want, but we're not the world's 911 dispatch center.

And nobody asked you to be, though that 'we' would have to be clarified.

Indeed I expected that some people would come with 'Why we're in Lybia and 'we' do nothing there??'. Yeah people in West can continue to think as if they had to rule the world, and all its slightest troubles no matter the different kind of conditions. For the record, technically there already is a force there to protect civilians, a UN force of 10,000 soldiers, something that in theory was the fit solution for this kind of conflict, that is a possible actual civil war, only between civilians, not involving a whole army of a country engaging in massive war crimes against some people that were only civilians in the beginning like in Libya. Gbagbo seem to have sometimes use some more or less official forces to make nasty things, but things reamin unclear so far, and in term of pace, outside of the days following the conflict in which there had quickly been about 200 hundred people who died in street fights, it really went slowly, then in theory 10,000 soldiers to protect civilians were fit, and they were there from before the elections.

In theory only because seems that because either a miss of organization of the UN force (yes, those very exotic worldwide mixes of soldiers catapulted in difficult conflicts like this anywhere in the world seem to clearly be not a great solution), and because of the regular army which prevented them to act efficiently, concretely it seemed to have clear problems to achieve its mission, that is when they didn't have to defend themselves from being attacked by some Gbagbo forces. But it was here, maybe in the future people will try to consider doing something efficient in that realm, such as something of the kind of what I proposed in an other post maybe, something that would work...

Moreover, that's cute to say that 'the white men' do nothing for 'the black men', but in term of 'psychological imperialism' that's not better. Côte d'Ivoire belongs to a region of the World, Western Africa, and belongs to a big organization there, ECOWAS, and those people, 'some black men', had taken this conflict in charge, they didn't call for 'the great white men who feel it's their duty to fix everything' to help them, they were even about to act, they have been prevented by an other organization of 'black men', AU, which in fact would have kinda tried to twist the things in favor of Gbagbo, thus why the situation was politically blocked and why it has been more easy for it to turn very slowly in a nasty situation without having much attention. So the 'poor black men' didn't wait for the 'great white men', it's about the regionalization of conflicts, in the same way it made still more sense that France was in the front line to intervene in a Mediterranean country with an other European power, UK, along with some other European countries since EU has most of the northern Mediterranean coasts, in the same way it would make more sense that Brazil intervened to try to rule a conflict between Chile and Argentina instead of China, India, or Russia.

That being said, if the situation were about to quickly degenerate there with big war crimes and with possibilities to have still more in the future, what happened in Libya then, theorically I'll be the 1st to push for my country to do something the way it did in Libya (yeah, theorically only in this case, because here, I'm not sure that it would be a good idea that France is on the front line in Côte d'Ivoire... though, if nobody wanted to go, why not, as long as intentions are clearly shown).

An Independent Force for Civilians would rule a lot of those questions.

Oh, and, there is oil too there sweeties, it has been found in the recent years offshore, it's in the hands of French companies, such as most of big economical infrastructures of the country, and all those very big French companies, especially the 2 main ones nicknamed the B&B, Bouygues and Bolloré, had very good relationships with Laurent Gbagbo, which didn't prevent Sarkozy to loudly and toughly give an ultimatum to Gbagbo to quit the power one week after the elections, and this for someone, Ouattara, who would be far less inclined to follow the good old rules of partnership with France. And yesterday evening, France, with Nigeria, passed a new UN resolution to call for Gbagbo to leave and to pass strong sanctions against him and his close relationships. The very tough attitude Sarkozy had against Gbagbo, beyond the fact you can wonder about the legitimacy for a leader of a country to call for a leader of an other one to leave as long as some crimes haven't been committed, was, 1st, not very smart, since it really didn't help to make the situation less tense there, with people playing on nationalism against all kinds of imperialism (US haven't been better), but overall, in term of 'cynical imperialism' it was kinda silly, French companies already had the most they could have in term of economical interests there and could have hidden behind 'we are the former colonial power, we prefer to stay discrete', but no, France preferred to loudly support a new situation, one more example of very awkward cynical imperialism apparently...

So, maybe things are a bit more subtle than 'why don't we help here?? and here?? and there??!' (the 'we' still needs to be defined, since such a 'we' would fit more the American psychology, of which moreover most of the interventions worldwide would have been more for its own sake than to help anybody most of the time, not to speak of the fact that most of the time it 'unhelped' more than it helped...), 'that's only because here there is oil! and there not! come on!'. lol.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Would be speeding up there.

Last news:

The Ouattara forces took Yamoussoukro yesterday in the evening, and San Pedro, the biggest worldwide cocoa export port, in the beginning of the night. Apparently there hadn't been much resistance in either, military and gendarmerie forces would have rallied them all along of their march, apparently only a bit of mess in San Pedro. They seem to haven't met the slightest resistance from authorities and population so far, according to them only some from some mercenaries and militians, and not much so far apparently. They claim controlling 3/4 of the territory.

Right now they are at 100 km from Abidjan. Earlier in the day Ouattara made a TV speech to call for people and all official forces to join them. A few hours ago the chief of the Ivorian military staff took refuge with is family in the South African ambassy, so far he stayed faithfull but he wasn't seen as a big military support of Gbagbo, his mainly military support would be the Presidential Guard and some special forces, which would be a few tens of thousands of men still, most of the regular army had voted for Ouattara. There has also been some reports of heavy gun fire heard in Abidjan in the last hours, and that a prison would have been broken there too.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

(Thanks for the thread title , yeah, beyond the fact that I like to defend French words and that it sounds far more beautiful than 'Ivory Coast' seems that it also is its internationally recognized name)

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Soro just gave a new interview to France24, according to him their troops are surrounding Abidjan now, they give a 'few hours' ultimatum to Gbagbo to step down, he also said other big officials would announce their defection soon.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I'm glad I have the kid with the 10-mile long name on iggy

[angus]

This hasn't got attention here for a couple months,

I noticed that as well.  for example, in the WaPo on-line today, under the Africa section there are five stories.  They are about Libya, Libya, Libya, Libya, and Sudan, respectively.  Thanks for the post.

The problem with UN sanctions is that they usually hurt the innocent, those at the bottom of the food chain, more than they hurt those intended targets.

The PBS Newshour actually did a short segment on it last night.  Basically opposition forces making gains.  Like what Ben Wahlah' posted.  It was refreshing to hear some mainstream news.

The NYT wrote today that Captain Léon Alla, Ouattara’s military spokesman, said “It was like butter.”  He was referring to the ease with which they took the administrative capital without firing many shots.  I guess that's like when Americans say "it was like gravy."  

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/01/world/africa/01ivory.html?_r=1&ref=africa

Incidently, it is an English-language article.  We don't refer to Germany as Deutschland when writing in English, or to Spain as España.  Nothing wrong with the BBC or the NYT writing about what's happening on the Ivory Coast, although it would obviously be weird if Le Monde did that.  

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Oh, Ouattara's ultimatum to Gbagbo to resign is 21h French hour (8 pm GMT if summer hour is counted).

The Golf Hostel blockade has stopped a few hours ago.

Some lootings of Gbagbo's 'Young Patriots' and some aggressions of French/Not black people happened during the last hours too, which started the deployment of the French force in Abidjan, which has about 1,000 soldiers there to protect the noticeable French community but they also protected other attacked communities of 'not black people', something which could participate to tensions.

That being said, dunno how it would evolve, but so far seems it doesn't remain much chance to Gbagbo to keep the power during a long time.

And we just heard that UN forces have just taken the control of Abidjan airport.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

And Ouattara ordered a curfew on Abidjan from 9 pm to 6 am local time, and the shutting of all borders.

[angus]

Much more reporting since you posted this thread.  Maybe the press reads this forum.

From today's WaPo:

"Forces backing Alassane Ouattara have overrun nearly 80 percent of the country as soldiers fled and towns fell in quick succession. The regular army put up almost no resistance during the four-day offensive, including in the ruler’s hometown, where fighters broke into Laurent Gbagbo’s compound and slept in his bed.  But they may face fierce resistance on the peninsula where the presidential palace is located, surrounded on all sides by a natural moat — Abidjan’s glassy lagoon."

It goes on to say that Gbagbo's soldiers are defecting or deserting.  Fifty thousand just today. But it also says that Ouattara is determined not to resign or abdicate.

They may be optimistic calling it the "final push" because both sides seem pretty determined.  Lots of nice pics too.  Click here to see the gallery.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Apparently lots of lootings are taking place, some heavy fights in different parts of the city too, notably around the Presidential Palace, UN and French forces would be overwhelmed to achieve their mission. Some houses of several figureheads have been looted too, those of the Chief of Staff Mangou and of the PM Affi N'Guessan according to an Abidjan's website.

Ouattara's site would be claiming that the Presidential compound is fallen in the hands of Republican forces (Ouattara's forces), but can't be checked yet.

A few mins ago Ouattara announced the immediate reopening of 'air borders', but not of terrestrial and maritime ones.

That pic, a looting with UN who would be like watching would be kinda symbolic of what's going on:

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Apparently it's the Presidential Palace of Cocody which would have been abandoned by Gbabgo's family which would be fallen in the hands of Republican forces. Though still no confirmation.

But, the main Presidential Palace, the one in the district of Le Plateau wouldn't has fallen at all, and Gbabgo family would have took refuge in it after having fled Cocody's. They would be currently defended by some Angolans, some mercenaries, the Republican Guard and some forces in charge of the security of the President according to someone close to Gbagbo clan.

Heavy fights would be mainly happening around the Plateau's palace and the State TV in Cocody. Lots of lootings continue.

Oh, and seems it's over there, maybe UN has been 'efficient' finally:

[angus]

It looks to me like he got bored and left after everything was stolen.  Well, there's a carseat still there, behind the flagpole, but I think that dude passing by has his eye on that.