The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Zarn]

cinyc, note that Walker goes beyond givebacks to help close a budget deficit into bona fide union-busting tactics. You and many others may feel that was an appropriate course of action for the greater good, but it also gives unions greater incentive to declare WW3 in response.

A war they will eventually lose...

[Platypus]

If only these protesters had dressed up in 18th century garb and held signs with horrible spelling about how Obama is simultaneously a Muslim, Socialist and Nazi. Then they would be true American patriots.

Nah, the identical glossy machine-printed sign look is much snappier.  Bonus points if they're all wearing identical t-shirts too.  Of course, it's really only first-rate when they hire people at minimum wage to protest for them.

Guess who fought for the minimum wage.

[Landslide Lyndon]

The unions never came into this with good faith.

Came into what? What part of "there were no negotiations" don't you understand Mr. Too-Much-Education-Has-Destroyed-America?

[Landslide Lyndon]

Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years.

http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf

Let me guess: they proposed a series of tax cuts to fix the deficit.

[Sbane]

So how much of an idiot is this governor? Now, I am certainly no fan of public employee unions and perhaps they are being coddled in Wisconsin, I am not sure. I have seen his proposals to increase the contributions workers make to their healthcare and pensions and I agree with that. But where things go awry is when he tries to take away collective bargaining rights from the employees.

What does taking away the rights of unions to collect dues have to do with the deficit? What does having to have a yearly vote to keep your union together have to do with the deficit? This moron overreached and it's sad Republicans here can't see that. I also don't like public employee unions, but this bill goes above and beyond just taking away plush benefits from them. Keep the unions in line, but don't take away people's rights to form them.

[Nym90]

Excellent news. Hopefully this will inspire others to follow suit and we can eventually stop the destructive assault on the economy that is being made under the guise of union busting.

[Sbane]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

[Sbane]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, if they are refusing to follow orders.

They should just hire blackwater. They will crack skulls with bullets if need be.

[krazen1211]

Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years.

http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf

Let me guess: they proposed a series of spending cuts on education to fix the deficit.

Corrected.

[Torie]

cinyc, note that Walker goes beyond givebacks to help close a budget deficit into bona fide union-busting tactics. You and many others may feel that was an appropriate course of action for the greater good, but it also gives unions greater incentive to declare WW3 in response.

What is wrong with the unions declaring WW3?  There probably will be one anyway, across the country in many places. The numbers are going to drive a plate tectonic shift. War is one way to resolve differences. It is not as if the GOP has any interest in placating public employee unions (except those public safety folks sadly), anyway. So given that they are a major part of the problem, go after them. Why not?

[Capitan Zapp Brannigan]

I agree with the cuts but destroying collective bargaining is going to far. That's just to destroy a political enemy, which is fine, but they should be upfront about it.

[Torie]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

[Nym90]

The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I agree with the cuts but destroying collective bargaining is going to far. That's just to destroy a political enemy, which is fine, but they should be upfront about it.

I don't see them as hiding their intentions at all.

[Sbane]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders.

If Walker tries to call out the guard he has no future in politics no matter how heroic it seems to conservatives, Americans do not enjoy the sight of the military beating up peaceful protesters, some of us learned a thing or two from the sixties.
And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break.

If someone wants to be a teacher, they will, regardless of money. But there are some who become teachers for job security and money. They don't want to be teachers. It's just a job to them. These types ignore the importance of education and go on strike.

Should teachers get paid at market rates for someone with a bachelor's degree?

[Landslide Lyndon]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil.

OK.

[Torie]

The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly.

Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate?  Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour?  And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients?

[Sbane]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

Again I don't see the difference between the administrator at a local public school making a lot of money thus affecting the quality of education or taxes and a administrator at a private school making a lot of money leading to hikes in tuition. I don't care whether my money is going to the government or a business, the point is that it's going more to the administrator than to my child's classroom. Whether it is a private or public school is highly irrelevant. I pay taxes in US dollars and I pay tuition in US dollars. 

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing w
hen the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil.

OK.

Excessive hyperbole and distort much?

[Landslide Lyndon]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing w
hen the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil.

OK.

Excessive hyperbole and distort much?  Greek socialism is tried and prove (to suck)

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing w
hen the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil.

OK.

Excessive hyperbole and distort much?  Greek socialism is tried and prove (to suck)

Don't shoot the messenger.

Dude, you have no message.

[Torie]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil.

OK.

No, just the market rate, like I am, and most of us are, who do not work for the government. If it is janitorial work, and the market rate is the minimum wage, that is why we have the income tax credit, etc., if necessary to get the standard of living up to some minimum level as to which we agree comports with our values. Yes, I am right wing on this issue, but I would submit, that there is a very good case to be made that it is my team that is looking out for the little guy on this one, not the opposition. Paying more for government services than we need to, does not help the little guy - indeed they can least afford that waste, because it will have a tendency to come out of government services that otherwise benefit them at the margins.

To me it is just wrong. I sleep well at night on this one.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Excessive hyperbole and distort much?

Not particularly; it's the logical end point of a lot of right-wing rhetoric (and, to be fair, theory) regarding public sector workers. Of course most people shy away from taking that kind of thing to its logical conclusion.

[Torie]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

Again I don't see the difference between the administrator at a local public school making a lot of money thus affecting the quality of education or taxes and a administrator at a private school making a lot of money leading to hikes in tuition. I don't care whether my money is going to the government or a business, the point is that it's going more to the administrator than to my child's classroom. Whether it is a private or public school is highly irrelevant. I pay taxes in US dollars and I pay tuition in US dollars. 

Well if the private school tuition gets uncompetitive, students will go elsewhere. It is all set by the market, and that is all the right wants when it comes to public employees - exactly the same thing. Somehow, I strongly doubt the top administrators of private secondary schools make anything like you suggest, and indeed in general they probably make less than similar persons in the public school system. But that is neither here nor there.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Dude, you have no message.

Gramps, you and Torie are reflexively hostile to public workers, regardless of whether they are actually overpaid or underpaid. There is zero evidence until now that Wisconsin workers were overpaid or somehow were an obscene burden to the state's budget.

I'm with you when you protest about what happens in New York or California, where there is evidence that the unions are sucking the states dry. But in this case I believe that both of you have let your prejudices cloud your judgment.