Egyptians can't be trusted with democracy

[Insula Dei]

Wait a second, if 10% of Egyptians is Coptic, does that mean that only about 5% of the Muslim population of Egypt doesn''t think that betraying Islam is worthy of the death penalty?

This poll smells of Bullsh**t

[Хahar 🤔]

If you poll a non-developed country, you won't get accurate results. Ever.

[minionofmidas]

Australians certainly can't be trusted with democracy - see Michael Howard's entire career.
I say Indonesia gets to impose a puppet dictator of their choice.

[Silent Hunter]

Australians certainly can't be trusted with democracy - see Michael Howard's entire career.

I think you mean John Howard, unless the former Conservative leader emigrated when we didn't notice...

Speaking of corporal punishment, I'm currently listening to Jeffrey Archer's Kane & Abel where thieves are getting their hands chopped off in 1919 Turkey. One of them dies of shock before his hand is cut off; I suspect that sort of thing happened in real life as well.

[minionofmidas]

No, he's called Michael. Certainly I am a more reliable authority on the names of Australian politicians than wikipedia, mainstream news organizations, official publications, or the politician in question.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

This thread is pointless. First of all, it is going to take decades of processes before we can see (if) a real democracy in Egypt and a whole region.

[Silent Hunter]

No, he's called Michael. Certainly I am a more reliable authority on the names of Australian politicians than wikipedia, mainstream news organizations, official publications, or the politician in question.

Sorry, I fought you were talking about the former Australian Prime Minister...

Who are you talking about then?

[minionofmidas]

No, he's called Michael. Certainly I am a more reliable authority on the names of Australian politicians than wikipedia, mainstream news organizations, official publications, or the politician in question.

Sorry, I fought you were talking about the former Australian Prime Minister...

I was.

[Hash]

If you poll a non-developed country, you won't get accurate results. Ever.

^^

this is very true. Furthermore, I would guess that polls in non-developed countries with a further history of authoritarian rule are even worse

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Much to deal with in this thread; but that can wait. For now... um... you all do realise that the Mubarak regime promoted (in various different ways) Islam of the sort you all recoil from and was probably responsible for some of the attacks on the Copts?

I tried to point that out in the other thread when I mentioned that Egypt already has sharia law to some extent.

Yeah, I saw that. But the more who point it out - because it's massively important - the better.

[opebo]

Much to deal with in this thread; but that can wait. For now... um... you all do realise that the Mubarak regime promoted (in various different ways) Islam of the sort you all recoil from and was probably responsible for some of the attacks on the Copts?

Of course, but what replaces him will be a million times worse because it will be more democratic - in other words it will respond more to the vicious desires of the people.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

If you poll a non-developed country, you won't get accurate results. Ever.

^^

this is very true. Furthermore, I would guess that polls in non-developed countries with a further history of authoritarian rule are even worse

In Arab countries it's actually very hard to count the population, much more "do polling" (the last census in Lebanon, for example, country considered much more developed than Egypt, was before WWII).

Stop thinking for a moment in European/American terms, when you're talking about very diffrent part of the world, for heaven's sake!

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Anyway, the fundamental problem with the argument that launched the thread is the implication that it is up to the West to decide which countries may or may not have elected governments. Not only is that ideologically dubious (and so obviously so that there's no need to elaborate. Besides, others have done so already), but it's also questionable from a practical point of view. Should Western soldiers invade Egypt and install a pliable puppet dictator to make sure that Western economic and strategic interests in the country are protected? Why, I'm sure that that would go down very well in a country with a colonial history within living memory and in which anti-imperalism (anti western imperialism, that is) forms - or at least used to - an important part of national identity?

[opebo]

Anyway, the fundamental problem with the argument that launched the thread is the implication that it is up to the West to decide which countries may or may not have elected governments. Not only is that ideologically dubious (and so obviously so that there's no need to elaborate. Besides, others have done so already), but it's also questionable from a practical point of view. Should Western soldiers invade Egypt and install a pliable puppet dictator to make sure that Western economic and strategic interests in the country are protected? Why, I'm sure that that would go down very well in a country with a colonial history within living memory and in which anti-imperalism (anti western imperialism, that is) forms - or at least used to - an important part of national identity?

No, but at the very least we should have been calling up every connection we had in the Egyptian Army saying - 'please, mow them down, please use the bunker busters, we won't have any criticism, in fact we'll send you 3 billion next year instead of 1.5', instead of that crapola about wanting 'democracy'.

[Lief 🗽]

If you poll a non-developed country, you won't get accurate results. Ever.

^^

this is very true. Furthermore, I would guess that polls in non-developed countries with a further history of authoritarian rule are even worse

In Arab countries it's actually very hard to count the population, much more "do polling" (the last census in Lebanon, for example, country considered much more developed than Egypt, was before WWII).

Stop thinking for a moment in European/American terms, when you're talking about very diffrent part of the world, for heaven's sake!

Yes, I read that Egypt likely has a population of about 100 million, with would be 20 million more than the official government estimates.

[Beet]

we'll send you 3 billion next year instead of 1.5'

They aren't Israel.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

It only uses a few limited sources and it is from Spiked! But most certainly worth a read.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10150/

[opebo]

Yes, I read that Egypt likely has a population of about 100 million, with would be 20 million more than the official government estimates.

So, even more to spare than we thought.

[Gustaf]

Yes, I read that Egypt likely has a population of about 100 million, with would be 20 million more than the official government estimates.

So, even more to spare than we thought.

Your desire to see poor non-white people slaughtered seems to have become a bit of an unhealthy obsession lately. Is it an age-thing?

[Insula Dei]

Yes, I read that Egypt likely has a population of about 100 million, with would be 20 million more than the official government estimates.

So, even more to spare than we thought.

Your desire to see poor non-white people slaughtered seems to have become a bit of an unhealthy obsession lately. Is it an age-thing?

I think Opebo is saying that there are even more people to be spared the horrors of a government they themselves elected.

[Gustaf]

Yes, I read that Egypt likely has a population of about 100 million, with would be 20 million more than the official government estimates.

So, even more to spare than we thought.

Your desire to see poor non-white people slaughtered seems to have become a bit of an unhealthy obsession lately. Is it an age-thing?

I think Opebo is saying that there are even more people to be spared the horrors of a government they themselves elected.

A couple of posts above he stated explicit support for "mowing" down the protestors, so I'm interpreting the comment in that light. Which is also the by far more common way of interpreting his post from a linguistic perspective.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

If you poll a non-developed country, you won't get accurate results. Ever.

^^

this is very true. Furthermore, I would guess that polls in non-developed countries with a further history of authoritarian rule are even worse

In Arab countries it's actually very hard to count the population, much more "do polling" (the last census in Lebanon, for example, country considered much more developed than Egypt, was before WWII).

Stop thinking for a moment in European/American terms, when you're talking about very diffrent part of the world, for heaven's sake!

Yes, I read that Egypt likely has a population of about 100 million, with would be 20 million more than the official government estimates.

That's common for Arab countries. There is no such thing like population records in our understanding. For example, my two Arab language professors, who came from Syria, have two birthdates: one legal and one actual.

There even such situations someone gets drafted to the army, but it turns out it's either kid or too old for service. No kidding.

[Redalgo]

I am rather keen on Egyptians having a greater measure of self-determination in government. If they are really going to settle on stoning adulterers and infusing religion into state I would much rather they do it in a non-violent, institutionally legitimate way that represents the culture of the nation than for the same result or worse to be reached by a military junta or regime handpicked by the United States. There are certainly reasons to be concerned about the future of Egypt but these are things we will simply have to deal with as they develop. I am not going to pretend like having Mubarak would be better than Egypt having a regime installed via free and fair elections.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

lol, really. I was like 'nah, I can't read the whole, it's too much', but I did, well, almost I skipped a few.

Amazing how people who apparently wouldn't have a clue of what the actual culture of this country would look like be inclined to tell people what they should do, the latter being alone still more amazing.

I'd love some countries come and tell what the US govt should do with Tea Party or anything, or some countries publicly telling USA shouldn't be trusted for democracy (and, personally, I must say that USA would be one of the part of the world that would worry me the most about its 'democratic future', and for years now, but that's an other topic).

1st, what Egyptians will do of their future is their business only.
2nd, populations rarely follow extremist ways when there aren't very special conditions for it to be.
3rd, most people here seem to speak out of nowhere not caring of what the Egyptian culture (urban and rural) could look like.
4th, lol boys, you're here spitting out of nowhere on the desires of a people to get their Rights because maybe, maybe, what would, maybe, result of this wouldn't abide to the fancy standards in place in the parts of the world you live in, standards that the parts of the world you live in needed about 200 years to result in something barely stable and fair. And now you don't give them 10 days, enjoy. What they already did has just been great and exemplary.