OLD: Comprehensive Social Security Reform Act (See new thread: Reference Only)

[Ban my account ffs!]

The sponsor offered a deadline of Monday. You opened a vote on Sunday. Either way, I was still trying to clear things up with this bill and you deprived me of that opportunity.

He changed the plan on Sunday, he called the shots, I merely responded:

This Senate fails forever. Since it is clear nobody gives a damn about this bill (and about the amount of work some people, me among others, have put in it), let's call a final vote and kill this finally. My fellow colleagues certainly have better things to do than doing their damn jobs, let's make their life easier.

Edit: You should be asking Antonio why he interrupted you. Or better yet why you interrupted him leading to him interrupting you. It was after the unsuccessful completion of your tabling effort and its lackluster turnout results that seem to have provoked Antonio to make that frustrated post about wanting a final vote. There was no reason to turn this into a confrontation. If Antonio didn't want a final vote, then it was a simple misunderstanding and we could have found a way to rectify the situation. However it doesn't appear that is the case.

That's not a motion for a vote.  It's a passing mention in a rant that we should bring it to a vote.

Honestly, this thread is so jumbled up I didn't even know it was up for final vote.. I thought we were voting on a motion to table.. then there were amendments being tossed around.

If I were PPT (which I'm sure you're giddy to remind me that I'm not), I would not have opened a vote without further consultation with Antonio.  And if he wanted a vote, I would make him state clearly a motion to bring this to a vote.

If I say "Yeah, well, the bird is burnt, so we might as well just say screw Christmas right now"... that doesn't mean I'm literally calling for everybody to immediately screw Christmas. 

But if I said
"yeah, well, the bird is burnt, so we might as well just say screw Christmas right now, therefore I am motioning to screw Christmas right now"... then it would be clear and a screwing could commence.

I think in all honesty the vote should be halted, debate should recommence, and then when a senator feels it is time to vote, they should clearly motion to bring this bill to a vote.

This ain't all perfect and pleather... sometimes you need a little shoe polish to hide the scuffs in the leather.

[CatoMinor]

Snowguy, he did not sat "we might as well" he said

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[Ban my account ffs!]

Snowguy, he did not sat "we might as well" he said

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I didn't interpret his statement as an actual call to action, but a fatalistic bit of frustration in a rant about the lack of progress of the bill (and he was right in berating us all.. we failed him).

Perhaps he did mean to call a vote... but it is up to the PPT to decipher those things.  Not just interpret, but get the intent of the senator in order to move business along.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Inconsistent statements ? What's so hard to understand ?

1 - I offer a proposal for significant modifications of the bill, asking Senators how they feel about those modifications.

2 - Not even one Senator gives me an answer, proving they don't give a sh*t about this bill.

3 - Napoleon introduces a motion to table, for purely personal reasons that have nothing to do with the bill itself. Yeah, this guy is supposed to be a Senator.

4 - The motion to table is approved by a plurality of Senators, with nearly half not even bothering to vote. For some technicality, it still fails.

5 - Acknowledging the Senators' utter lack of interests with this bill, and the fact that the Senate session ends in one month, I call a final vote, being convinced that it will fail.


What exactly is inconsistent here ? Besides the attitude of people who, after doing nothing for 6 months, are now trying to blame it on me if the bill fails.

If you want to cancel the final vote and get back to debate, go on. I don't know how this will end up, but I don't see what I can do anymore.

[Napoleon]

I actually had plenty of reasons for tabling this, which is why the motion received more Ayes than Nays. Sir, your attacks and deception are out of line.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Snowguy, he did not sat "we might as well" he said

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I didn't interpret his statement as an actual call to action, but a fatalistic bit of frustration in a rant about the lack of progress of the bill (and he was right in berating us all.. we failed him).

Perhaps he did mean to call a vote... but it is up to the PPT to decipher those things.  Not just interpret, but get the intent of the senator in order to move business along.

I did get the intent of the Senator, when he called for the final vote. In the end, a call for a final vote is just that. The PPT shouldn't be charged with psychoanalysing a posters words to see if he truly meant it. I know he was frustrated, but that doesn't change what he trully wanted. If it had been an error of interpretation, then fine, I would end the vote and be more cautious then I usually am going forward, if that is even possible. He hasn't said it was a misinterpretation. The OSPR doesn't prohibit motions made out of frustration anymore then those motivated by childness.

As to your previous post, I am not "giddy to point out" anything. I don't know if you see me as arrogant or something, but that is not my style.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Inconsistent statements ? What's so hard to understand ?

1 - I offer a proposal for significant modifications of the bill, asking Senators how they feel about those modifications.

2 - Not even one Senator gives me an answer, proving they don't give a sh*t about this bill.

3 - Napoleon introduces a motion to table, for purely personal reasons that have nothing to do with the bill itself. Yeah, this guy is supposed to be a Senator.

4 - The motion to table is approved by a plurality of Senators, with nearly half not even bothering to vote. For some technicality, it still fails.

5 - Acknowledging the Senators' utter lack of interests with this bill, and the fact that the Senate session ends in one month, I call a final vote, being convinced that it will fail.


What exactly is inconsistent here ? Besides the attitude of people who, after doing nothing for 6 months, are now trying to blame it on me if the bill fails.

If you want to cancel the final vote and get back to debate, go on. I don't know how this will end up, but I don't see what I can do anymore.

Antonio, just so you know, I didn't intend to suggest that I thought you were inconsistent, I was merely accepting his premise to explain why that had nothing to do with whether or not the final vote was arbitrary.

I do recall their being three answers, I know I gave a condensed post explaing how I intended to vote once I thought it was done to an extent that it would be effective and practical.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yank, when I talked about Senators not doing their jobs you are the last person I could have been refering to. I thought that was obvious.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yank, when I talked about Senators not doing their jobs you are the last person I could have been refering to. I thought that was obvious.

Well you did kind of include everyone when you said "Not even one" Senator.


Don't you just love English?

You still have time to change your mind by the way.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yank, when I talked about Senators not doing their jobs you are the last person I could have been refering to. I thought that was obvious.

Well you did kind of include everyone when you said "Not even one" Senator.


Don't you just love English?

You still have time to change your mind by the way.

You are more than a simple Senator, Yank.

And if I bring back the bill to debate, I want the certainty that this will serve some purpose. I want to know if Senators have something to offer to improve the bill.

I already said all :

If you want to cancel the final vote and get back to debate, go on. I don't know how this will end up, but I don't see what I can do anymore.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Snowguy, he did not sat "we might as well" he said

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I didn't interpret his statement as an actual call to action, but a fatalistic bit of frustration in a rant about the lack of progress of the bill (and he was right in berating us all.. we failed him).

Perhaps he did mean to call a vote... but it is up to the PPT to decipher those things.  Not just interpret, but get the intent of the senator in order to move business along.

I did get the intent of the Senator, when he called for the final vote. In the end, a call for a final vote is just that. The PPT shouldn't be charged with psychoanalysing a posters words to see if he truly meant it. I know he was frustrated, but that doesn't change what he trully wanted. If it had been an error of interpretation, then fine, I would end the vote and be more cautious then I usually am going forward, if that is even possible. He hasn't said it was a misinterpretation. The OSPR doesn't prohibit motions made out of frustration anymore then those motivated by childness.

As to your previous post, I am not "giddy to point out" anything. I don't know if you see me as arrogant or something, but that is not my style.

I don't think Antonio's intention was clear and I would have shot him a PM to make sure.  I mean.. what if I motioned for a vote in German?  Would you call the vote?  Or would you be asking me what I said for clarification?

It doesn't matter.  I voted aye in the end because I offered to help Antonio re-write this and get it passed before his senate term was up... but he has made it clear that he has given up... so I thought I might as well vote aye and try not to make his tenure in the senate for nothing.

But if we're all going to start complaining about how lazy and uninterested all the other senators are... I think we all have plenty to say... so let's get it out.  If Atlasia is gonna go down, let's make it go down in a spectacular fireworks show!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well I would use an online translator, since I have been too lazy to continue my studies of the German language. Then I would ask, "WHY THE HELL YOU SPEAKIN IN GERMAN?!!!"


I know what you are saying Snowguy, I should have gotten clarification. And yes, maybe I should have PMed him before going in half cocked. But the reality of the situation is, that even with being so reckless, it ended up being his desire to have a final vote.

I feel sorry for Antonio as well, and the last thing I want is for him to loose this bill which he has worked so hard on. If there was a way, that I could get Senators to start offering to help in improving this bill I would gladly do it. But I can't give Antonio any kind of guarrantee about that or anything that will ensure that if I do end the vote, that we won't just sit here doing nothing.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This is what I propose (relative to the benefits) :

Health insurance no change

Unemployment insurance Reduce the unemployment benefits to :
- 80% in the 1st year
- 60% in the 2nd year
- 40% in the 3rd year and after.

Lower the maximum benefit from $4000 to $3000.

Parenthood insurance Strike it outright

Elderly insurance set a maximum pension at $8000

Minor insurances no change

This is for the prestations. As for the funding, I'd wait for Barnes to give us his expertise onthe best ways of taxation. But first of all, I'd like to know if you Senators would get along with such a bill. If these changes don't satisfy you, then it's probably better to give up and table the bill. Otherwise, we can expect it to be passed by August.

Antonio, did you ever get a response on how the changes listed above would lower the cost of the bill?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I've PMed Barnes a few weeks ago, and he still hasn't replied. I have to assume we can't rely on having his report soon enough to act (even though I'm sure he's done what he could).

Since even on this side, there is no guarantee of progresses being made, I guess my giving up is explained quite easily.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I've PMed Barnes a few weeks ago, and he still hasn't replied. I have to assume we can't rely on having his report soon enough to act (even though I'm sure he's done what he could).

Since even on this side, there is no guarantee of progresses being made, I guess my giving up is explained quite easily.

Forget Barnes and go directly to the Blues. He is the GM afterall, he must be able to give you something. Lock him in a room and refuse to let him out till he gives you what you need. If we have numbers I expect to see that in amendment form by tomorrow. What you need is simple, have him read the whole bill and then your changes and then give you rought percentage estimate of the reduction in costs. It shouldn't take more then a half hour tops.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I've PMed Barnes a few weeks ago, and he still hasn't replied. I have to assume we can't rely on having his report soon enough to act (even though I'm sure he's done what he could).

Since even on this side, there is no guarantee of progresses being made, I guess my giving up is explained quite easily.

Forget Barnes and go directly to the Blues. He is the GM afterall, he must be able to give you something. Lock him in a room and refuse to let him out till he gives you what you need. If we have numbers I expect to see that in amendment form by tomorrow. What you need is simple, have him read the whole bill and then your changes and then give you rought percentage estimate of the reduction in costs. It shouldn't take more then a half hour tops.

I'm guessing that analysis would take a heck of a lot longer than half an hour, assuming it's possible.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I've PMed Barnes a few weeks ago, and he still hasn't replied. I have to assume we can't rely on having his report soon enough to act (even though I'm sure he's done what he could).

Since even on this side, there is no guarantee of progresses being made, I guess my giving up is explained quite easily.

Forget Barnes and go directly to the Blues. He is the GM afterall, he must be able to give you something. Lock him in a room and refuse to let him out till he gives you what you need. If we have numbers I expect to see that in amendment form by tomorrow. What you need is simple, have him read the whole bill and then your changes and then give you rought percentage estimate of the reduction in costs. It shouldn't take more then a half hour tops.

I'm guessing that analysis would take a heck of a lot longer than half an hour, assuming it's possible.

A full analysis would of course take several hours. We don't need perfection and thus we don't need dollar amounts, not for this purpose anyway. We just need a rough idea on how much those changes would reduce the overall expense of the bill.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I can try to contact Marokai, but I wouldn't put too much hope in that. He already had a lot of work with his GM duties and the calculations he has to do are anything but easy.

[CatoMinor]

So is the final vote still going on or are we back to debate?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So is the final vote still going on or are we back to debate?

How ironic that my inspiration for this last minute attempt to salvage this bill was inspired by the debt ceiling mess. Oops, guess that doesn't bode well for Tuesday.

[Antonio the Sixth]

PMed Marokai. No reply yet.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

This could been finished a long time ago, if only all successive GMs give a damn.

[Yelnoc]

This could been finished a long time ago, if only all successive GMs give a damn.

If it's worth anything, my term as GM was spent without a computer

[Marokai Backbeat]

Antonio sent me the PM yesterday but even though I looked at my PM box a million times I swear to God I never noticed it for some reason. He sent me a PM about a half hour ago saying "Did you see my PM?" and I was confused until I looked up and then slapped myself.

I have to move some things from one house to another very shortly, so once I get back and get settled in I will do exactly as Yankee suggests; read the bill, tell you what I think, and give a rough estimation of what stuff will cost.

And despite Kalwejt, I do, in fact, "give a damn." (And would lay the majority of the blame on the Senate not caring very much lately.. But that's neither here nor there.)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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This is about what an amendment would look like.


Antonio? Is that suppose to be $8000 per month maximum benefit? Maybe you should consider 3,000, if so.  I don't need a GM to tell me that an 8,000 dollar a month pension is a budget buster, especially when the average median income is like 48,000 a year.