Did the Swift Boat Vets for Truth cost John Kerry the Election.
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  Did the Swift Boat Vets for Truth cost John Kerry the Election.
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Author Topic: Did the Swift Boat Vets for Truth cost John Kerry the Election.  (Read 6580 times)
George W. Bush
eversole_Adam
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« on: November 21, 2004, 12:39:54 AM »

I think had they never came about John Kerry would have won. What does everyone think?
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Alcon
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2004, 01:06:46 AM »

Lots of things contributed to his loss and if they were gone, he would have won, as with any close election. The swifties coulda swung it.
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opebo
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2004, 02:39:03 AM »

Yes, in the sense that they targeted the lumpenproles who are not actively religious - a small sliver, but an important one.  This group was convinced by these rather obvious fabrications, and then proceded to vote againt their own economic interests due to 'patriotism'.
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Ben.
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2004, 06:22:34 AM »

The SBVT really threw Kerry’s campaign off its stride for weeks.

Kerry and Edwards and even Kerry’s pollsters wanted an immediate response but folks like Shrum argued they should “rise to it”… had Kerry shot back like he had wanted to he had a strong case and could have probably recovered his stride earlier, according to reports that surfaced after the campaign Carville (who was not heavily involved in the campaign at the time) was apoplectic when Kerry didn’t hit back.

Its interesting to note that Carville began to get more and more involved in dealing with the Kerry Campaign towards the end and the more he got involved the better Kerry did… in the end the issue wasn’t the SBVT’s but the fact that Shrum just was a lousy campaign manager as in 2000  when Brazil had to salvage Gore’s bid Carville tired to do the same this year but thanks to flaws within the Kerry campaign and with Kerry himself he couldn’t manage it.             
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Engineer
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2004, 01:16:17 PM »

It was Kerry’s response, or rather lack of response that cost him the election.  Here we had serious accusations against him, that went unanswered.

1.   Christmas in Cambodia – even after it was completely debunked, even by the men on his own boat, he never recanted his position.  Lack of integrity there (the morals issues.)

2.   His medical records – he stated that all the information that he had was posted on his website, yet in an interview with Tom Brokaw, he stated that the information on his IQ hadn’t been released.  Furthermore, he refused to sign a DOD 180 form that would have released all his service information.  His statement at that all the form he had were on the website may have been true, yet he knew there were other forms that the government had, that he may not personally have had.  He was telling a partial truth that was purposefully meant to deceive.  More of that integrity stuff.  Just imagine how quickly he would have shut down the Swiftees if he would have released those records, and they contradicted their accusations.  He would have gotten a 5% jump in the polls.  Instead, we were all left to speculate that he had something to hide.  And even if he did have something to hide, something he wasn’t proud of, if he would have sincerely apologized to the American people for what he did, we as a people have it in our heart to forgive him.  He probably would have risen in the polls.  Note: a sincere apology is not being sorry for getting caught, it being sorry for what you did.

3.   His after war activities – he never commented on these.  He needed to have stated that a.) I gave truthful testimony about our military and am proud of it, b.) I gave truthful testimony and am sorry for it, c.) I gave false testimony and am proud of it, or d.) I gave false testimony and am sorry for it.  By not commenting on his past activities, we are left with lingering doubts.  Not the sort of person people feel comfortable with electing as the President.
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Jake
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2004, 09:12:47 PM »

Yes, in the sense that they targeted the lumpenproles who are not actively religious - a small sliver, but an important one.  This group was convinced by these rather obvious fabrications, and then proceded to vote againt their own economic interests due to 'patriotism'.
Damn those religious and patriotic americans.
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2004, 09:28:12 PM »

It was Kerry’s response, or rather lack of response that cost him the election.  Here we had serious accusations against him, that went unanswered.

1.   Christmas in Cambodia – even after it was completely debunked, even by the men on his own boat, he never recanted his position.  Lack of integrity there (the morals issues.)

2.   His medical records – he stated that all the information that he had was posted on his website, yet in an interview with Tom Brokaw, he stated that the information on his IQ hadn’t been released.  Furthermore, he refused to sign a DOD 180 form that would have released all his service information.  His statement at that all the form he had were on the website may have been true, yet he knew there were other forms that the government had, that he may not personally have had.  He was telling a partial truth that was purposefully meant to deceive.  More of that integrity stuff.  Just imagine how quickly he would have shut down the Swiftees if he would have released those records, and they contradicted their accusations.  He would have gotten a 5% jump in the polls.  Instead, we were all left to speculate that he had something to hide.  And even if he did have something to hide, something he wasn’t proud of, if he would have sincerely apologized to the American people for what he did, we as a people have it in our heart to forgive him.  He probably would have risen in the polls.  Note: a sincere apology is not being sorry for getting caught, it being sorry for what you did.

3.   His after war activities – he never commented on these.  He needed to have stated that a.) I gave truthful testimony about our military and am proud of it, b.) I gave truthful testimony and am sorry for it, c.) I gave false testimony and am proud of it, or d.) I gave false testimony and am sorry for it.  By not commenting on his past activities, we are left with lingering doubts.  Not the sort of person people feel comfortable with electing as the President.


The key thing about the Swifties was that they publicized matters which the liberal media was covering up and which (had the Bush campaign publicized Kerry's actions) they would have screamed bloody murder about.
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Democratic Hawk
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2004, 01:12:38 PM »

They didn't help look at it that way

Dave
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elcorazon
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2004, 05:08:47 PM »

Kerry lost the election during the time frame when the Republicans successfully defined him as a waffler, prior to the democratic convention.  He never responded or overcame that picture that most voters got from the Republicans.  He came close during the convention (but most people don't watch conventions and he spent too much time on Viet Nam) and during the debates (but it was still too late - impressions are lasting), but never could shake the image. 

The Swifties fed into the image nicely dovetailing with the Republican strategy.  I'm not sure if Kerry could have won if the Swiftboaters hadn't gotten involved, but their involvement did help Bush, if for no reason, but by taking the rest of the campaign off the table for a period.
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J. J.
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2004, 05:50:17 PM »

Kerry lost the election during the time frame when the Republicans successfully defined him as a waffler, .... He came close during the convention (but most people don't watch conventions and he spent too much time on Viet Nam) and during the debates (but it was still too late - impressions are lasting), but never could shake the image. 


EXACTLY!  I wanted to hear what Kerry was going to do, but I never did.  His speech didn't answer it and he spent entirely too much time looking at the late 1960's and early 1970's.

I've always said that the campaign was stuck in the mid-70's, in terms of tone.  Even without the Swifties, you still had that 1970's tone and mindset.  The world has changed a lot since the mid-70's.
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Defarge
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2004, 06:48:00 PM »

A month's worth of nonstop media coverage of this thing cost Kerry the election, though alot of things cost Kerry the election in the end.
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Bogart
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2004, 07:55:10 PM »

There's no doubt that the Swift Boat ads did neutralize Kerry for about a month, but it seems to me he recovered well before the election. I think what cost Kerry the election was offering no clear, concise and compelling alternative to the incumbent. People just weren't convinced. His support was much "softer" than Bush's. And, in the end, he couldn't surmount Bush's massive get out the vote campaign.
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Red Button
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2004, 02:32:38 PM »

Yes.  Kerry never recovered with veterans, and it only helped the bush campaign in painting kerry as a flip flopper.  Damn Republican spin machine
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Rococo4
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2004, 01:53:04 AM »

maybe - but maybe Kerry shouldnt have been such a attnetion seeking bastard when he came back from Vietnam.  It finally came back to get him
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Wakie
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2004, 04:33:52 AM »

maybe - but maybe Kerry shouldnt have been such a attnetion seeking bastard when he came back from Vietnam.  It finally came back to get him

In other words Kerry shouldn't have protested the war in Vietnam?  Why not?  Vietnam was extremely screwed up and, quite frankly, was unwinnable.  Those who protested the war helped to end it sooner.  If they had not protested it would have gone on longer.  More American servicemen would have died.  And for what?  Even if Vietnam somehow were winnable, what would we have won?  Maybe our pride wouldn't have been hurt.  How many dead men is it worth to not have your pride hurt?
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Engineer
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2004, 07:27:52 AM »

No, Kerry may have had a right to protest the war.  But he didn't have the right to lie about it by maligning others. 
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