Department of Defence DADT Survey

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so, looks like few members of congress cared to take the advice of our combat troops and went ahead and passed the repeal of DADT anyway:


while 70 percent of service members (regardless if they work a desk job) surveyed said repealing the policy would have a positive, mixed or no effect, nearly 50 percent and 60 percent of Army and Marine combat troops, respectively, think serving with an openly gay or lesbian service member will have a negative or very negative effect on their unit's war-fighting capability.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Has there been any negative impact anywhere in the world where gays are allowed to serve openly alongside straights? I ask this question sincerely, since I haven't seen anything to that effect during this entire discussion. I see arguments about hurting a soldier's apparently delicate sensibilities, but I see nothing whatsoever on any evidence of harm. (Especially considering that, you know, plenty of gays are already in the military anyway, and if it was going to be doing any harm, it already would be.)

[Franzl]

I've always wondered why this debate never focused on the fact that no other country has any problems with gay soldiers.

[ilikeverin]

I've always wondered why this debate never focused on the fact that no other country has any problems with gay soldiers.

'Cuz this is 'Murrica, and our troops are better at... being... prejudiced... than theirs?

[Joe Republic]

I've always wondered why this debate never focused on the fact that no other country has any problems with gay soldiers.

And so often overlooks the fact that our soldiers have already been serving alongside those openly gay soldiers for years.

The U.S. is so often way behind the curve, and it's embarrassing.

[Einzige Mk. II]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

[afleitch]

I personally think politicians and army top brass must think so little of frontline troops that they think they will have a problem with gays.

[Joe Republic]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Excellent point.

[Frink]

I personally think politicians and army top brass must think so little of frontline troops that they think they will have a problem with gays.

This. The entire argument over the issue from the anti-gay side is elitist and derogatory (whether valid or not).

[Einzige Mk. II]

I personally think politicians and army top brass must think so little of frontline troops that they think they will have a problem with gays.

This. The entire argument over the issue from the anti-gay side is elitist and derogatory (whether valid or not).

Elitism isn't always a bad thing on these subjects. The conservative argument in favor of DADT has been, basically, that the lowly grunt might have an issue with it. Implicit in this argument is the radically populist idea that the military ought to be a democracy.

I reject that argument. As in all things, the soldier serves with those whom he is told to serve with. His personal feelings matter not an iota in the scheme of things.

[Frink]

I personally think politicians and army top brass must think so little of frontline troops that they think they will have a problem with gays.

This. The entire argument over the issue from the anti-gay side is elitist and derogatory (whether valid or not).

Elitism isn't always a bad thing on these subjects. The conservative argument in favor of DADT has been, basically, that the lowly grunt might have an issue with it. Implicit in this argument is the radically populist idea that the military ought to be a democracy.

I reject that argument. As in all things, the soldier serves with those whom he is told to serve with. His personal feelings matter not an iota in the scheme of things.

I agree with both of your points to some extent. Yes the radical populist element is a piece of the Conservative argument on the issue and is much more appealing a case to make in public. That doesn't preclude a certain elitism towards "those people" and their ability to adapt to change (ironic given the occupation the people in question perform) or deal with "the homos" from being present or even prevalent among certain pundits, commentators, or the politicos themselves who repeat such arguments.

Its up to others more in tune with the lower levels of the military to decide if such arguments hold water.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What's with the gay Brit spelling of the word "defense"?  You aren't going queer on us, are you jmf****t?

no, either it's MS Word spell checker (it's set on Brit spellings since i work for a European company), or it's a typo

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

so, looks like few members of congress cared to take the advice of our combat troops and went ahead and passed the repeal of DADT anyway:


while 70 percent of service members (regardless if they work a desk job) surveyed said repealing the policy would have a positive, mixed or no effect, nearly 50 percent and 60 percent of Army and Marine combat troops, respectively, think serving with an openly gay or lesbian service member will have a negative or very negative effect on their unit's war-fighting capability.

I can appreciate that some in Congress looked at some of these results and decided against repealing DADT on this basis. I ultimately think the repeal will be a good thing, even if it isn't easy at first. I imagine that many of these troops are thinking about what the effect will be for some other people, not necessarily that it is something they would have a problem with, but that they can imagine it would be a problem for some. So they could well be overestimating the extent to which there will be a problem.  In reality most gay people, especially the sort who would join the military, are not going to come out if they think it will cause problems.

[Free Palestine]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Actually, most recruits seem to come from upper-to-middle-class backgrounds.  But, this has no impact on the intelligence of those recruits.  Believe me, I know -- wealthier kids are just as stupid as poor kids.  Maybe even more stupid.

Though, I picked up this information from something on the Heritage Foundation website...

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I'm guessing that some were uncomfortable with Executive Order 9981, too. So what?

[Einzige Mk. II]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Actually, most recruits seem to come from upper-to-middle-class backgrounds.  But, this has no impact on the intelligence of those recruits.  Believe me, I know -- wealthier kids are just as stupid as poor kids.  Maybe even more stupid.

Though, I picked up this information from something on the Heritage Foundation website...

For the military as a whole - which I have no problem accepting - or for the Marines?

[patrick1]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Actually, most recruits seem to come from upper-to-middle-class backgrounds.  But, this has no impact on the intelligence of those recruits.  Believe me, I know -- wealthier kids are just as stupid as poor kids.  Maybe even more stupid.

Though, I picked up this information from something on the Heritage Foundation website...

For the military as a whole - which I have no problem accepting - or for the Marines?

Not sure where you are getting your stereotype.  The Marines would probably tend to be higher on the list  of social class when compared to the Army.  You get more people who join for the tradition and the fact that it does see more combat as a whole.  There are more rear echelons positions available in the Army and many join solely for schooling.  It is also whiter than either the Navy or Army.  IIRC, it does have the highest Hispanic population.

[Phony Moderate]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Actually, most recruits seem to come from upper-to-middle-class backgrounds.  But, this has no impact on the intelligence of those recruits.  Believe me, I know -- wealthier kids are just as stupid as poor kids.  Maybe even more stupid.

Though, I picked up this information from something on the Heritage Foundation website...

For the military as a whole - which I have no problem accepting - or for the Marines?

I thought you were an individualist?

[Einzige Mk. II]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Actually, most recruits seem to come from upper-to-middle-class backgrounds.  But, this has no impact on the intelligence of those recruits.  Believe me, I know -- wealthier kids are just as stupid as poor kids.  Maybe even more stupid.

Though, I picked up this information from something on the Heritage Foundation website...

For the military as a whole - which I have no problem accepting - or for the Marines?

I thought you were an individualist?

I am. That doesn't mean that large groups of similar individuals won't act similarly. I'd still like to see the statistics on the socioeconomic background of the average Marine.

[Phony Moderate]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Actually, most recruits seem to come from upper-to-middle-class backgrounds.  But, this has no impact on the intelligence of those recruits.  Believe me, I know -- wealthier kids are just as stupid as poor kids.  Maybe even more stupid.

Though, I picked up this information from something on the Heritage Foundation website...

For the military as a whole - which I have no problem accepting - or for the Marines?

I thought you were an individualist?

I am. That doesn't mean that large groups of similar individuals won't act similarly. I'd still like to see the statistics on the socioeconomic background of the average Marine.

http://citizencain.blogspot.com/2005/12/military-service-and-socioeconomic.html

[Einzige Mk. II]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Actually, most recruits seem to come from upper-to-middle-class backgrounds.  But, this has no impact on the intelligence of those recruits.  Believe me, I know -- wealthier kids are just as stupid as poor kids.  Maybe even more stupid.

Though, I picked up this information from something on the Heritage Foundation website...

For the military as a whole - which I have no problem accepting - or for the Marines?

I thought you were an individualist?

I am. That doesn't mean that large groups of similar individuals won't act similarly. I'd still like to see the statistics on the socioeconomic background of the average Marine.

http://citizencain.blogspot.com/2005/12/military-service-and-socioeconomic.html

So most military recruits are lower-middle to middle-class. Okay, and that still wouldn't remotely surprise me. But the Marines?

[Phony Moderate]

One needs to look at what social classes most Marines are drawn from to understand the real issue at stake. I suspect that sixty plus percent of the lower classes anywhere would poll against gay rights.

Actually, most recruits seem to come from upper-to-middle-class backgrounds.  But, this has no impact on the intelligence of those recruits.  Believe me, I know -- wealthier kids are just as stupid as poor kids.  Maybe even more stupid.

Though, I picked up this information from something on the Heritage Foundation website...

For the military as a whole - which I have no problem accepting - or for the Marines?

I thought you were an individualist?

I am. That doesn't mean that large groups of similar individuals won't act similarly. I'd still like to see the statistics on the socioeconomic background of the average Marine.

http://citizencain.blogspot.com/2005/12/military-service-and-socioeconomic.html

So most military recruits are lower-middle to middle-class. Okay, and that still wouldn't remotely surprise me. But the Marines?

Here we go....

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA345037

[Einzige Mk. II]

So in other words Marines do often come from at least lower-middle-class backgrounds. Which perfectly explains their relative hardheadedness on this issue versus branches which recruit from higher socioeconomic classes like, say, the Air Force. That explains it, then. Their conservatism on this issue is a natural extension of the basic conservatism of the low classes.

[patrick1]

So in other words Marines do often come from at least lower-middle-class backgrounds. Which perfectly explains their relative hardheadedness on this issue versus branches which recruit from higher socioeconomic classes like, say, the Air Force. That explains it, then. Their conservatism on this issue is a natural extension of the basic conservatism of the low classes.

I dont see where it says that.  I think you are reaching somewhat with this class thing.  The Marine Corps is the youngest and by far most male service.  It is also the only service that has separate recruit training for men and women.  It is structured foremost as a combat, infantry branch.  As a young service, with less officers and a well ingrained macho tradition- you will invariably get  some anti-homosexual undercurrents- as you would in most football locker rooms.

[Phony Moderate]

So in other words Marines do often come from at least lower-middle-class backgrounds. Which perfectly explains their relative hardheadedness on this issue versus branches which recruit from higher socioeconomic classes like, say, the Air Force. That explains it, then. Their conservatism on this issue is a natural extension of the basic conservatism of the low classes.

You seem to be claiming that the richer you are, the more likely you are to be a social liberal. So tell me then, why did 63% of those voters who earned $200,000 or more vote for George W. Bush in 2004?