THE THREE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS

[J. J.]

Jesus also said, "On all this hangs all the laws and the prophets."  It was no summation.

what?!  

Well, I disagree.

As does the Catholic Church:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0h&oq=jesus+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS371US371&q=jesus+summarizes+the+ten+commandments+catholic

As does the Apostle Paul:

Romans 13:9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law….Gal 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

If you weren’t so busy being argumentative, maybe you would see it the same way.

Whether or not You, the Catholic Church, of Paul disagrees does not change what the Book of Mark records:

Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

You've heard Christ's answer to that question.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

4)Gays:  my statements regarding homosexuality are exactly the same as my statements regarding adultery, bestiality, fornication, drunkenness, lying, stealing, greed, etc, etc, etc.  I am not the one that dances around the portions of the bible that are not political correct; to the contrary, it is the cowards who do that.

JamJam, is it possible for me to believe in God but think being gay isn't a bad thing in the eyes of God?

One can believe anything he/she wants.  But that doesn’t make it in agreement with the word of God.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jesus also said, "On all this hangs all the laws and the prophets."  It was no summation.

what?!  

Well, I disagree.

As does the Catholic Church:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0h&oq=jesus+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS371US371&q=jesus+summarizes+the+ten+commandments+catholic

As does the Apostle Paul:

Romans 13:9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law….Gal 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

If you weren’t so busy being argumentative, maybe you would see it the same way.

Whether or not You, the Catholic Church, of Paul disagrees does not change what the Book of Mark records:

Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

You've heard Christ's answer to that question.

J.J. you’re arguing semantics, basically you’re saying that “love God with all your mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself” cannot possibly be BOTH what the scripture is predicated upon AND be the summation of the scripture.  But predicated and summation can be, and in many cases are, one and the same.

Predicated -
1. State, affirm, or assert (something) about the subject of a sentence or an argument of proposition
2. Found or base something on.

Summary –
1. synopsis, or recap is a shorter version of the original. Such a simplification highlights the major points from the much longer subject.

Jesus forward engineers the problem and says the Law was predicated upon love; Paul reverse engineers the problem and says the whole law is summarized in love.  They’re arriving at the exact same conclusion!  

[J. J.]

a) the three most important things... as determined by your Pastor

No, actually, it is VERBATIM what Ecclesiastes states:

Ecc 12:13 Now all has been heard;
   here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
   for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
   including every hidden thing,
   whether it is good or evil.

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...my favourite part....

b) and "if you weren't so busy trying to question me... you'd accept that me and my Pastor are right"

Actually, the witnesses I cited were the Apostle Paul and the Catholic Church, to which J.J. claims he was at least once connected.  I brought up the Catholic Church in an effort to stir some sense of respect within J.J. since he was making foolish statements (that Jesus wasn’t summarizing the Law and the Prophets) with which no one in Christianity agrees, simply for the sake of opposing me.  But making stupid statements for the sake of opposing me is something many (including you yourself, apparently) on this forum do.

I simply state is as stated.  He was asked a specific question and gave a specific answer.  Now, if you, or your pastor, has a problem with that, take it with the guy who said it or at least the guy who wrote it down.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I simply state is as stated.  He was asked a specific question and gave a specific answer.  Now, if you, or your pastor, has a problem with that, take it with the guy who said it or at least the guy who wrote it down.

dude, your whole argument is a flea circus, for neither my pastor nor I ever disagreed with Jesus' summation.

[J. J.]

I simply state is as stated.  He was asked a specific question and gave a specific answer.  Now, if you, or your pastor, has a problem with that, take it with the guy who said it or at least the guy who wrote it down.

dude, your whole argument is a flea circus, for neither my pastor nor I ever disagreed with Jesus' summation.

It isn't an argument.  I'm quoting the question, in context, and the answer.  If you have a problem with that, don't argue with me over it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I simply state is as stated.  He was asked a specific question and gave a specific answer.  Now, if you, or your pastor, has a problem with that, take it with the guy who said it or at least the guy who wrote it down.

dude, your whole argument is a flea circus, for neither my pastor nor I ever disagreed with Jesus' summation.

It isn't an argument.  I'm quoting the question, in context, and the answer.  If you have a problem with that, don't argue with me over it.

J.J.

I cant believe it’s come down to this, but I am going to have to spell out some very basic facts:

1) The 3 points mentioned in this thread are ONLY in the context of the book of Ecclesiastes.
2) Jesus statement was in the context of the ENTIRE Law and Prophets, not just the book of Ecclesiastes.
3) Ecclesiastes listed three main points in its summation: 1) Fear God, 2) Obey God’s commandments, 3) Know that everything you do will be Judged by God
4) Jesus’ statement  to “love God and love your neighbor” are commands from the Law of Moses and per Jesus are the foundation of the Law.
5) Ecclesiastes’ exhortation to “Obey God’s commandments” is exactly equivalent to “love God and love your neighbor” because Jesus himself said it was.  So Ecclesiastes is on the EXACT same page as Jesus Christ. 
   
So, what exactly are you saying because you seem to be implying this thread is NOT in sync with Jesus' statements?  Are you saying that my pastor and I disagree with Jesus on this point?  Are you saying the Catholic Church disagrees with Jesus on this point?  Are you saying the Apostle Paul is in disagreement with Jesus on this point?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

J.J.

How is there any disagreement between the following two lists:

List One:  Fear God, keep God's commandments, know that Judgment is coming.

List Two:  Love God with all your mind and soul, love your neighbor as yourself.

[John Dibble]

Fear God, keep God's commandments, know that Judgment is coming.

Remember kids - God is watching you. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

There is very fundamental difference between fear and love, jmfcst.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Fear God, keep God's commandments, know that Judgment is coming.

Remember kids - God is watching you. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

yo, hate to shake you up, but the people of the bible who feared God did NOT cower in life, rather they were conquerors and lived life to its fullest.  But you bring to light the one of the main points of the sermon:  fear, obedience, and judgment are politically incorrect to the world and those who rebel against God lack fear of Him and purposely forget they will be judged.

[John Dibble]

yo, hate to shake you up, but the people of the bible who feared God did NOT cower in life, rather they were conquerors and lived life to its fullest.

Genocide, slavery, rape, stealing other people's lands - living life to the fullest by making the lives of others miserable! OH YEAH!

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It's quite a testament to how pathetic your deity is that he needs to rule by fear.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

There is very fundamental difference between fear and love, jmfcst.

never said there wasn't.  You can fear God but not love or obey Him.  

But it is impossible to love and obey God without fearing Him.

[John Dibble]

But it is impossible to love and obey God without fearing Him.

You have a very twisted definition of love.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

4)Gays:  my statements regarding homosexuality are exactly the same as my statements regarding adultery, bestiality, fornication, drunkenness, lying, stealing, greed, etc, etc, etc.  I am not the one that dances around the portions of the bible that are not political correct; to the contrary, it is the cowards who do that.

JamJam, is it possible for me to believe in God but think being gay isn't a bad thing in the eyes of God?

One can believe anything he/she wants.  But that doesn’t make it in agreement with my interpretation of the word of God.

I had to fix your sentence for you since you left some words out.........

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

yo, hate to shake you up, but the people of the bible who feared God did NOT cower in life, rather they were conquerors and lived life to its fullest.

Genocide, slavery, rape, stealing other people's lands - living life to the fullest by making the lives of others miserable! OH YEAH!

you seem to forget that God can't "steal" anything because everything belongs to Him.  And you seem to forget that those nations were destroyed as a result of the actions of its people.

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It's quite a testament to how pathetic your deity is that he needs to rule by fear.

yet standing in judgment of God is pointless for it changes nothing.  So what is your point?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

4)Gays:  my statements regarding homosexuality are exactly the same as my statements regarding adultery, bestiality, fornication, drunkenness, lying, stealing, greed, etc, etc, etc.  I am not the one that dances around the portions of the bible that are not political correct; to the contrary, it is the cowards who do that.

JamJam, is it possible for me to believe in God but think being gay isn't a bad thing in the eyes of God?

One can believe anything he/she wants.  But that doesn’t make it in agreement with my interpretation of the word of God.

I had to fix your sentence for you since you left some words out.........

really?  then explain to me how homosexuality fits within the context of the bible without ignoring parts of scripture?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

But it is impossible to love and obey God without fearing Him.

You have a very twisted definition of love.

no, you're just purposely forgetting that God has provided a way for those who fear Him to be able to come into his presence WITHOUT fear because they are covered with mercy (the blood of Jesus Christ).  The believer's fear of God is the fear of being in his presence without the covering of Jesus' blood, therefore a believer strives to remain under the blood.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

4)Gays:  my statements regarding homosexuality are exactly the same as my statements regarding adultery, bestiality, fornication, drunkenness, lying, stealing, greed, etc, etc, etc.  I am not the one that dances around the portions of the bible that are not political correct; to the contrary, it is the cowards who do that.

JamJam, is it possible for me to believe in God but think being gay isn't a bad thing in the eyes of God?

One can believe anything he/she wants.  But that doesn’t make it in agreement with my interpretation of the word of God.

I had to fix your sentence for you since you left some words out.........

really?  then explain to me how homosexuality fits within the context of the bible without ignoring parts of scripture?

I never said it was sanctioned, I just don't think God hates gays or will ban them to hell.....and IF your interpretations are correct, all will be forgiven come judgement day anyway and none of it will matter.

[John Dibble]

you seem to forget that God can't "steal" anything because everything belongs to Him.

What a perfect justification for someone who wants to steal what someone else owns - if you want something and you have the power to take it assuage your guilt by saying that God wants you to have it.

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Yeah, like daring to worship and preach about a different invisible man in the sky! How dare they!? Kill all the men, non-virgin women, and male children and infants followed by the enslavement of all of their virgin girls is a perfectly justified response. F**K FREEDOM OF RELIGION!

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Oh please. You claim your deity is great. I would claim he isn't based entirely on what you claim about him. I doubt I'll convince you, but if I can convince at least one other person listening in to abandon the belief that an obviously incompetent, narcissistic excuse for a supreme being is so great then I'd say that has a point to it. I've told you that multiple times but apparently you're too dense to bother to remember.

But it is impossible to love and obey God without fearing Him.

You have a very twisted definition of love.

no, you're just purposely forgetting that God has provided a way for those who fear Him to be able to come into his presence WITHOUT fear because they are covered with mercy (the blood of Jesus Christ).  The believer's fear of God is the fear of being in his presence without the covering of Jesus' blood, therefore a believer strives to remain under the blood.

No, I'm not forgetting anything. Even with what you just said I still say your definition of love is twisted.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I never said it was sanctioned, I just don't think God hates gays or will ban them to hell...

since when?  it is condemned in both the old and new testaments.  might as well say unrepentant fornicators and adulterers are not condemned

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and IF your interpretations are correct, all will be forgiven come judgement day anyway and none of it will matter.

maybe I missed something, but how do my interpretations give any hope of forgiveness to the unrepentant?!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

ignoring your grievances against God, since it is not in context of this thread...maybe you should make your own thread concerning your grievances and how you hate God, instead of trolling the threads of believers...

No, I'm not forgetting anything. Even with what you just said I still say your definition of love is twisted.

it's not a definition of love of God, rather it is a prerequisite

it is the same with love of God and obedience to God, they're bound by the hip:

John 14:24 "Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching."

you can't disobey Christ while loving him.  you can't love Christ while disobeying him.  And since fearing God is one of Jesus' commands, therefore, you can't obey or love Christ without fearing him:

Luke 12:5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

[J. J.]

I simply state is as stated.  He was asked a specific question and gave a specific answer.  Now, if you, or your pastor, has a problem with that, take it with the guy who said it or at least the guy who wrote it down.

dude, your whole argument is a flea circus, for neither my pastor nor I ever disagreed with Jesus' summation.

It isn't an argument.  I'm quoting the question, in context, and the answer.  If you have a problem with that, don't argue with me over it.

J.J.

I cant believe it’s come down to this, but I am going to have to spell out some very basic facts:

1) The 3 points mentioned in this thread are ONLY in the context of the book of Ecclesiastes.
2) Jesus statement was in the context of the ENTIRE Law and Prophets, not just the book of Ecclesiastes.
3) Ecclesiastes listed three main points in its summation: 1) Fear God, 2) Obey God’s commandments, 3) Know that everything you do will be Judged by God
4) Jesus’ statement  to “love God and love your neighbor” are commands from the Law of Moses and per Jesus are the foundation of the Law.
5) Ecclesiastes’ exhortation to “Obey God’s commandments” is exactly equivalent to “love God and love your neighbor” because Jesus himself said it was.  So Ecclesiastes is on the EXACT same page as Jesus Christ. 
   
So, what exactly are you saying because you seem to be implying this thread is NOT in sync with Jesus' statements?  Are you saying that my pastor and I disagree with Jesus on this point?  Are you saying the Catholic Church disagrees with Jesus on this point?  Are you saying the Apostle Paul is in disagreement with Jesus on this point?

Jesus very clearly said that these, loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself, were the most important.  I have no idea what either you or pastor think, but Jesus was not asked to summarize the law.  He was asked what the most important, and gave his answer.

Jesus didn't say, "To summarize the law ... "

J.J.

How is there any disagreement between the following two lists:

List One:  Fear God, keep God's commandments, know that Judgment is coming.

List Two:  Love God with all your mind and soul, love your neighbor as yourself.

Someone can easily fear God, and believe in a final judgment and not love God.  You'll note Jesus didn't mention judgment there.

Likewise, certainly when Jesus said it, and I would say today, you can fail to keep commandments, but still love your neighbor as yourself.  In the context of the time, someone who didn't follow the dietary laws or an uncircumcised man would not be keeping the commandments, yet that person could still love their neighbor (e.g. the good Samaritan).

[John Dibble]

ignoring your grievances against God, since it is not in context of this thread...maybe you should make your own thread concerning your grievances and how you hate God, instead of trolling the threads of believers...

Sure, if you promise to stop trolling your religious beliefs into every thread where homosexuality is involved.

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it's not a definition of love of God, rather it is a prerequisite

it is the same with love of God and obedience to God, they're bound by the hip:

John 14:24 "Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching."

you can't disobey Christ while loving him.  you can't love Christ while disobeying him.  And since fearing God is one of Jesus' commands, therefore, you can't obey or love Christ without fearing him:

Luke 12:5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."[/quote]

If something is absolutely required for it, it's part of it. You can't separate the two if it's a requirement, so I stand by what I said.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jesus very clearly said that these, loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself, were the most important.  I have no idea what either you or pastor think, but Jesus was not asked to summarize the law.  He was asked what the most important, and gave his answer.
Jesus didn't say, "To summarize the law ... "
 

And in his answer Jesus also state that “upon those two hang the entire law”, which means the entire law is predicated (hung) upon those two.   And one gets the same answer, as Paul did, when the law is properly summarized.   

What part of the following are you unable to follow?:

Jesus forward engineers the problem and says the Law was predicated upon love; Paul reverse engineers the problem and says the whole law is summarized in love.  They’re arriving at the exact same conclusion!

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Someone can easily fear God, and believe in a final judgment and not love God.

Which I’ve already stated.  But you cannot love God and not fear Him.  And you cannot love God and ignore his teachings, including his teachings on eternal judgment.

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You'll note Jesus didn't mention judgment there.

But he mentions judgment, and mentions it repeatedly, in other places.  Are you claiming Jesus is giving you permission to ignore the rest of his teachings?

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Likewise, certainly when Jesus said it, and I would say today, you can fail to keep commandments, but still love your neighbor as yourself.  In the context of the time, someone who didn't follow the dietary laws or an uncircumcised man would not be keeping the commandments, yet that person could still love their neighbor (e.g. the good Samaritan).

Not all commandments have to do with other people (“love your neighbor as yourself”), some are internal and are only between you and God(“love God with all your heart”).  Therefore, you can NOT claim you can simply do one half the commands of God and be saved.

In fact, you cannot love God and hate people, nor love people and hate God.   And you cannot love God and disobey God. 

1John 4:21 “And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.”

Therefore, you are either all in, or you are on the outside:

Mat 28: 19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

If you ignore ANY of Christ’s commands, then you are violating  either “love God with all your heart” and/or  “love your neighbor as yourself”.

Why not simply do everything he commands?