Clean Energy Act

[Colin]

I would like to know your reasoning behind making Nuclear a hazardous or Non-Renewable Power Source?

[Peter]

I would like to know your reasoning behind making Nuclear a hazardous or Non-Renewable Power Source?

I would have though that Chernobyl would have been a pretty good justification, though that was more due to safety lapses on the part of the Russians, it showed just how lethal nuclear energy can be when mishandled.

[JohnFKennedy]

I do not agree with the "elimination" of non-renewable heavy pollutant power production (note no of should be between non-renewable and heavy pollutant power if I am not mistaken) as I do not think it would be foreseeably possible to rely solely on renewable energy sources, especially if nuclear power is not included  as they simply cannot produce enough power in many areas.

Also, under your list of renewable sources I believe you should also include Tidal, Wave and Geothermal energy.

I don't think in 25 years we can hope to remove all forms of polluting energy sources and I think it would be very costly to have these back up sources of energy, I think we should be still using them, but in smaller quantities.

[Colin]

I would like to know your reasoning behind making Nuclear a hazardous or Non-Renewable Power Source?

I would have though that Chernobyl would have been a pretty good justification, though that was more due to safety lapses on the part of the Russians, it showed just how lethal nuclear energy can be when mishandled.

But it hasn't been mishandled in this country. Their has only been one major nuclear accident and that was at Three Mile Island near Harrisburg. In that incident because of the good heat containment fields and radiological containment fields their was no radiation leaked into the atmosphere. Their was no contamination of any area outside the plant. Chernobyl only happened because it did not have any sort of containment field and was structurally too weak to safely contain a nuclear reactor. The reactor used in Chernobyl was too large for a containment field so instead of not building it or waiting for a large enough containment field to be built the Russian government gave the go ahead to build the plant without a containment field or the nescessary safety features need in the event of a nuclear disaster. This could not happen in Atlasia because we already have stringent safety laws concerning Nuclear power plants and any company that does not comply with these laws is penalized. So Chernobyl couldn't happen in this country and nuclear disasters would be very, very rare in a country like Atlasia.

I would also like to give you the example of France. They have the most nuclear power plants in the world but yet they have never had a major radiological incident.

[Peter]

All of the above is most certainly true, but if there were to be a nuclear accident (which despite its improbability is still a possibility) has the potential to have the long term effects of killing millions. That sounds quite hazardous to me.

[Siege40]

The reason it is included is that Nuclear energy generates many tonnes of nuclear waste. This waste, in theory, should be... safer, to handle 180000 years later. This is not a good ulternative. I'll continue to adapt the legislation.

Siege

[StevenNick]

I have some serious problems with the bill proposed here.

Upon the passage of this bill:

1. The regions of Atlasia shall have six decades to discuss, decide and implement the type of alternative, clean energy that suits their region the best.

I think this is incredibly vague.  I understand the value of trying to find a regional solution to this problem, but this part of the bill doesn't at all make it clear what the goal here is.  What is "alternative, clean energy?"

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How much is sufficient?  Is there to be some kind of cap on the amount of federal funds to be allocated for this purpose?  My fear is that regions, knowing that the federal government will foot the bill for whatever "alternative, clean" energy sources they come up with, will propose some ridiculously expensive, very anti-free market plan that will force the federal government to spend far more than is anticipated at the time of this bill.

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We still don't know how to tell when "the job is completed."  This portion of the bill could give the federal government wide-ranging powers to step at the end of the sixty years and shove anything down the throats of the unsuspecting regions.  We really need to have some specific job before we can talk about completing it or not.  We need to know how you're going to measure success.

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Once again, we don't know what the regions need to back up.  And we still don't know how we're going to measure whether or not the regions have failed in executing this portion of the bill or not.

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I don't think it's within the federal government's constitutional authority to command Atlasian citizens to buy electricty made by certain means.  And it is impossible to force citizens to get their power from two seperate energy sources.  Citizens simply get electricity.  The source of that electricity is something for the power company to figure out.

Overall, I fear that this bill's vague language would lead to any combination of the following:  nothing, something, but a cost much greater than anticipated, or higher energy costs and massive abuses of federal power.

[TeePee4Prez]

I would also like to add the following suggestions:

1.  Atlasia should reduce her dependency on foreign oil by enacting efficiency standards by the following years: 

    a.  2010
         i. Minimum 20 MPG for vehicles over 4 tons
        ii. Minimum 25 MPG for vehicles between 2 and 4 tons.
       iii.  Minimum 30 MPG for vehicles under 2 tons.

     a.  2015
         i. Minimum 25 MPG for vehicles over 4 tons
        ii. Minimum 30 MPG for vehicles between 2 and 4 tons.
       iii.  Minimum 35 MPG for vehicles under 2 tons.

2.  Tax credit for 15% of the purchase price for hybrid vehicles.

3.  $50 million in increased funding for the discovery of alternative energy sources.

[Colin]

All of the above is most certainly true, but if there were to be a nuclear accident (which despite its improbability is still a possibility) has the potential to have the long term effects of killing millions. That sounds quite hazardous to me.

While their is a very small risk their is no way of producing enough energy for the entire nation using the resources that are excepted under the Siege-Texasgurl plan.

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Four resources all of which produce very low amount of energy. Hydro is very expensive and takes alot of manpower to build and produce. You need to make a new lake, basically, for the generators to operate. Wind can only be used in areas were their is always a strong steady wind and were their is alot of land. I would also ask everyone to look into the current controversy over putting windmills off the coast of Massachusetts. Solar can only be used in areas where their is alot of sun light, like the southwest. I don't know about you but their is very little sunlight, due to clouds and shorter days, in the Fall and Winter up here in PA. That itself would rule out Solar as a very usable energy source. Biomass or Geothermal may be options. I don't know much about Biomass but I know that Geothermal can only be used in areas of volacanic activity, like Yellowstone or Hawaii, and while it has been put to good use in Iceland I don't see it creating much power here.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

As General Secretary of the National Union of Mineworkers...

The NUM thinks that more money and resources need to be spent researching into cleaner and more efficient ways of burning coal (currently only a small fraction of the possible energy in a lump of coal is used. The vast majority is wasted), while encouraging the growth of certain renewable fuels.
The NUM thinks that the use of Oil and Natural Gas in power plants should be scaled down.

[DanielX]

As General Secretary of the National Union of Mineworkers...

The NUM thinks that more money and resources need to be spent researching into cleaner and more efficient ways of burning coal (currently only a small fraction of the possible energy in a lump of coal is used. The vast majority is wasted), while encouraging the growth of certain renewable fuels.
The NUM thinks that the use of Oil and Natural Gas in power plants should be scaled down.

Now your support of that wouldn't be because you represent thousands of coalminers, now would it?

[Colin]

As General Secretary of the National Union of Mineworkers...

The NUM thinks that more money and resources need to be spent researching into cleaner and more efficient ways of burning coal (currently only a small fraction of the possible energy in a lump of coal is used. The vast majority is wasted), while encouraging the growth of certain renewable fuels.
The NUM thinks that the use of Oil and Natural Gas in power plants should be scaled down.

Now your support of that wouldn't be because you represent thousands of coalminers, now would it?

Yes it would be Daniel. As the head of a labour union he has to represent the intrests of those people who are part of the union he is a leader of.

[Siege40]

It is the intention, in my view anyway to reduce the dependency on polluting inefficient fuels, and encourage CLEANER fuels, and Clean fuels. I'll prepare another draft by Wed.

Siege

[Siege40]

Clean Energy Act of Nov. 22 2004 - Draft 3

Definitions:

Clean Energy - A form of power generation that produces little to no pollution. Little meaning less than 5 tonnes of air pollution for yearly operation. (Currently the average Coal Plant produces something like 30-100 tonnes) This term also covers all renewable sources, and any future developments that meet these two criteria.

Hazardous or Non-Renewable Power - Oil, Gas, and Coal power production.

Renewable - (As of Oct. 2004) – Electricity generated through the following methods Hydro, Wind, Solar, Geothermal, Tidal Wave, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion and Biomass.

Power Plant - Any structure that produces over 1000 Watts of electricity.

Small Generator - Equal to or less than 1000 Watts.

Efficiency – Reducing the amount of pollution produced by this form of power by 20% or more.

Sections

1. Regional Planning

A. The regions of Atlasia shall have 25 years to discuss, decide and implement the type of alternative, clean energy that suits their region the best. A plan for the elimination, reduction or regulation to increase the efficiency of non-renewable of heavy pollutant power production must be drafted and ready for implementation.

B. The federal government shall allocate rather total or partial funds to help the Regions meet these goals, providing that the Senate through a vote deems the plan feasible.

2. Penalties for failure of Regional Action

A. If the deadline is not met the Federal Government will intervene and implement a Federal plan to reduce, eliminate or increase the efficiency of hazardous power generation.

3. Back-up

A. The regions of Atlasia shall be required to have back up sources of energy (i.e. Coal, nuclear energy) available and ready to be used.

B. The Federal Government has the power to prosecute any lapse in this policy.

4. Citizen Power

A. Any citizen is allowed to own his or her own independent small generator of any make or model.

B. Any citizen that purchases a clean or renewable individual small generator for their home, or if a citizen purchases a hybrid or clean vehicle, the government will refund 20% of the cost.

C. Any business that purchases a clean or renewable individual small generator for their business or if a business purchases a hybrid or clean vehicle, the government will refund 15% of the cost.

[Colin]

Clean Energy Act of Nov. 22 2004 - Draft 3

Renewable - (As of Oct. 2004) – Electricity generated through the following methods Hydro, Wind, Solar, Geothermal, Tidal Wave, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion and Biomass.

Just a few things here. I have never heard of Tidal Wave Energy Production so if you could give me the FYI on that type of power plant that would be great and the inclusion of Nuclear Fusion is pretty much unneeded considering the Fusion is aleast 35 years away from success.

[Siege40]

Clean Energy Act of Nov. 22 2004 - Draft 3

Renewable - (As of Oct. 2004) – Electricity generated through the following methods Hydro, Wind, Solar, Geothermal, Tidal Wave, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion and Biomass.

Just a few things here. I have never heard of Tidal Wave Energy Production so if you could give me the FYI on that type of power plant that would be great and the inclusion of Nuclear Fusion is pretty much unneeded considering the Fusion is aleast 35 years away from success.

Tidal wave energy is an interesting possibility. A wave is a circular spinning circle of water moving alond the ocean. Eventually it comes to the shore and 'rolls' to the beach in a wave. The idea is that if you put generators in the water, these waves will turn the small turbine and generate power. They have testing facilities for this in British Columbia. It generates very little power, but if there was a way to make is on a larger scale who knows.

Who knows about Fusion, for all we know, some nut bar in a basement in Indiannapolis could figure out how to do it, and problem solved. But the point is, it's out there, so what does it hurt to give it a nod?

Siege

[TeePee4Prez]

Clean Energy Act of Nov. 22 2004 - Draft 3

Renewable - (As of Oct. 2004) – Electricity generated through the following methods Hydro, Wind, Solar, Geothermal, Tidal Wave, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion and Biomass.

Just a few things here. I have never heard of Tidal Wave Energy Production so if you could give me the FYI on that type of power plant that would be great and the inclusion of Nuclear Fusion is pretty much unneeded considering the Fusion is aleast 35 years away from success.

Tidal wave energy is an interesting possibility. A wave is a circular spinning circle of water moving alond the ocean. Eventually it comes to the shore and 'rolls' to the beach in a wave. The idea is that if you put generators in the water, these waves will turn the small turbine and generate power. They have testing facilities for this in British Columbia. It generates very little power, but if there was a way to make is on a larger scale who knows.

Who knows about Fusion, for all we know, some nut bar in a basement in Indiannapolis could figure out how to do it, and problem solved. But the point is, it's out there, so what does it hurt to give it a nod?

Siege

Good idea.  My suggestion would be to have such plants in a cove or bay area away for tourists.  Example, New Jersey shore should have such plants back in the Intercoastal Waterway.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Clean Energy Act of Nov. 22 2004 - Draft 3

Definitions:

Clean Energy - A form of power generation that produces little to no pollution. Little meaning less than 5 tonnes of air pollution for yearly operation. (Currently the average Coal Plant produces something like 30-100 tonnes) This term also covers all renewable sources, and any future developments that meet these two criteria.

Hazardous or Non-Renewable Power - Oil, Gas, and Coal power production.

Renewable - (As of Oct. 2004) – Electricity generated through the following methods Hydro, Wind, Solar, Geothermal, Tidal Wave, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion and Biomass.

Power Plant - Any structure that produces over 1000 Watts of electricity.

Small Generator - Equal to or less than 1000 Watts.

Efficiency – Reducing the amount of pollution produced by this form of power by 20% or more.

Sections

1. Regional Planning

A. The regions of Atlasia shall have 25 years to discuss, decide and implement the type of alternative, clean energy that suits their region the best. A plan for the elimination, reduction or regulation to increase the efficiency of non-renewable of heavy pollutant power production must be drafted and ready for implementation.

B. The federal government shall allocate rather total or partial funds to help the Regions meet these goals, providing that the Senate through a vote deems the plan feasible.

2. Penalties for failure of Regional Action

A. If the deadline is not met the Federal Government will intervene and implement a Federal plan to reduce, eliminate or increase the efficiency of hazardous power generation.

3. Back-up

A. The regions of Atlasia shall be required to have back up sources of energy (i.e. Coal, nuclear energy) available and ready to be used.

B. The Federal Government has the power to prosecute any lapse in this policy.

4. Citizen Power

A. Any citizen is allowed to own his or her own independent small generator of any make or model.

B. Any citizen that purchases a clean or renewable individual small generator for their home, or if a citizen purchases a hybrid or clean vehicle, the government will refund 20% of the cost.

C. Any business that purchases a clean or renewable individual small generator for their business or if a business purchases a hybrid or clean vehicle, the government will refund 15% of the cost.

Add a clause on research into cleaning up fuels and making them more efficient

[JohnFKennedy]

Tidal Wave,

A comma is needed between Tidal and Wave, they are two different ways of generating electricity, a tidal wave is not so great .

[Siege40]

OK Al.

Siege

[Filuwaúrdjan]

OK Al.

Siege

Good man

[JohnFKennedy]

Tidal Wave,

A comma is needed between Tidal and Wave, they are two different ways of generating electricity, a tidal wave is not so great .

^^

[Siege40]

Clean Energy Act of Nov. 26 2004 - Draft 4

Definitions:

Clean Energy - A form of power generation that produces little to no pollution. Little meaning less than 5 tonnes of air pollution for yearly operation. (Currently the average Coal Plant produces something like 30-100 tonnes) This term also covers all renewable sources, and any future developments that meet these two criteria.

Hazardous or Non-Renewable Power - Oil, Gas, and Coal power production.

Renewable - (As of Oct. 2004) – Electricity generated through the following methods Hydro, Wind, Solar, Geothermal, Tidal, Wave, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion and Biomass.

Power Plant - Any structure that produces over 1000 Watts of electricity.

Small Generator - Equal to or less than 1000 Watts.

Efficiency – Reducing the amount of pollution produced by this form of power by 20% or more.

Sections

1. Regional Planning

A. The regions of Atlasia shall have 25 years to discuss, decide and implement the type of alternative, clean energy that suits their region the best. A plan for the elimination, reduction or regulation to increase the efficiency of non-renewable of heavy pollutant power production must be drafted and ready for implementation.

B. The federal government shall allocate rather total or partial funds to help the Regions meet these goals, providing that the Senate through a vote deems the plan feasible.

2. Penalties for failure of Regional Action

A. If the deadline is not met the Federal Government will intervene and implement a Federal plan to reduce, eliminate or increase the efficiency of hazardous power generation.

3. Back-up

A. The regions of Atlasia shall be required to have back up sources of energy (i.e. Coal, nuclear energy) available and ready to be used.

B. The Federal Government has the power to prosecute any lapse in this policy.

4. Citizen Power

A. Any citizen is allowed to own his or her own independent small generator of any make or model.

B. Any citizen that purchases a clean or renewable individual small generator for their home, or if a citizen purchases a hybrid or clean vehicle, the government will refund 20% of the cost.

C. Any business that purchases a clean or renewable individual small generator for their business or if a business purchases a hybrid or clean vehicle, the government will refund 15% of the cost.

Siege

[JohnFKennedy]

I think that this is a nice idea and a noble one at that.

However, I have concerns regarding the feasibility. It requires that the regions use all of these renewable forms of energy, but unless some serious progress is made over the next twenty-five years, I do not see it being possible to base our infrastructure solely on renewable sources of energy.

This also has some severe economic problems attached, firstly the research into these forms of energy will be expensive in itself, not to mention the establishment of all the different types of power plants all across Atlasia, no easy feat. It also incurs costs in the fact that the coal, oil, gas etc. plants must be kept in good condition as a form of back-up in case the renewable sources of energy fail, this means that the government is having to spend an absolute fortune to keep the power grid of Atlasia afloat, something I do not see being economically viable. If you can produce for me a twenty-five year forecast on the costs incurred through this bill that seems within reason to me, I will gladly vote in favour, if not, I do not feel I can.

Instead of trying to eliminate non-renewable forms of energy, we should be encouraging renewable forms by means of tax cuts and systems of this type, I do not think it is feasible within the next twenty-five years that we could rely solely on renewable forms of energy.

While this is nice in principle, I do not find it feasible.

[JohnFKennedy]

As the Status thread of Peter Bell doesn't recognise this as on the Senate floor, I declare the debate open.