Opinion of the DREAM act

[dead0man]

Except they aren't "effectively" forced to join the military. (as if that's some horrible thing)

[Frink]

Except they aren't "effectively" forced to join the military. (as if that's some horrible thing)

Conscription as the only route to citizenship would be a pretty horrible thing. Much worse than the status quo, in fact.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Except they aren't "effectively" forced to join the military. (as if that's some horrible thing)

Perhaps that wasn't the best word usage. Anyways how many illegals are going to be able to go to college for two years? I'm sure you can answer this question yourself and realize what point I'm trying to make. Anyways anything resembling conscription is awful. I'd like to have young illegals have the opportunity to become citizens without going through the horrors of our pointless war in Afghanistan.

Sorry that I think it's awful that many people join the military in order to get a cheap education or become a citizen. One should not have to jump through such hoops in order to get something essential or something that they are qualified for.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Somewhat favorable.

I am 100% for an option that not only creates a legal status but also offers citizenship to those who risk their lives in defense of America when so many of our actual citizens, myself included, have chosen not to.

On the other hand, I'm not favorable to the idea of throwing in the college education aspect along with it.  Someone who spends four (or more) years of their life listening to and pleasing Marxist anti-American professors should probably be disqualified from citizenship and deported immediately.

Hmm, so...

Murdering people on behalf of the State = good.

Getting an education = bad.


Basically sums up the mentality of the Bush Republican.

Risking one's life for their country's freedom = good

Sitting in a classroom defending the enemy = bad

Don, real moderates don't consider a college education to be Marxist brainwashing.

OK Libertas is the voice of reason here. That says it all really.

[dead0man]

Except they aren't "effectively" forced to join the military. (as if that's some horrible thing)

Conscription as the only route to citizenship would be a pretty horrible thing. Much worse than the status quo, in fact.

I was saying the military isn't a horrible thing.  Yes it would be bad to force captured illegals to join the military, obviously this bill is nothing like that.  Insinuating that it is like that (effectively or not) is silly, IMHO.

Except they aren't "effectively" forced to join the military. (as if that's some horrible thing)

Perhaps that wasn't the best word usage. Anyways how many illegals are going to be able to go to college for two years?

Community College is pretty freaking cheap and there are quite a few ways to get help paying for that if you don't make much money.  Millions of Americans are working there way through Community College right now just to improve their station in life (yes you can improve your position in life through hard work) and they already have their citizenship.

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Thankfully, this bill is nothing like that.

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They can.  They can join the Navy, or the Coast Guard.  Or they can go to college.  Or they can go back to their nation of origin.  Or they can keep hiding.

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Cheap education is essential?

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Community college is definitely not cheap if you're illegal. If this bill doesn't let them apply for state aid, it would be ridiculosly expensive for them. Think about the low wages that they are paid. Not to mention getting into a community college is much harder nowdays than it was in the past. Don't play the "hard work" card on me. It's a stupid argument, these kids should be citizens if they grew up here and they should have to go through an ardouous process to achieve what they are entitled.

I placed an "or". A cheap college education is essential if you want to be middle class but that wasn't the point that I was trying to make. I think if you are qualified to go to a state college, you should be able to go without worrying about the cost. That is another issue though. My point was that people should not be forced to make the desicion between joining the military or being working class or joining the military or being deported. Believe it or not some people are morally opposed to such things.

[dead0man]

Community college is definitely not cheap if you're illegal. If this bill doesn't let them apply for state aid, it would be ridiculosly expensive for them.

cite that Community College is "ridiculously expensive"?

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cite?

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"entitled"?  really?  Nobody is "entitled" to anything. (except to not be hassled or harmed by others)

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Tell that to the millions of people doing just fine without a college degree (like me).  The meme that "everybody that can go to college, should" is and always was stupid and wrong.

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and I completely disagree.

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Yeah, I get your point and I along with most of the rest of the country disagree with you.  Change my (our) mind(s) if you can.  I like to change my mind when I find out I'm wrong about something.

I can sympathize with somebody born into an illegal situation, which is why I support the bill.

[Frink]

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You can't really be born into an illegal situation if your born on US soil. Not to mention the whole concept of restricting freedom of movement is ridiculous.

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The definition of ridiculously expensive is different for everyone and thus isn't something you can "cite". For sub-minimum wage immigrant workers community college tuition, around here anyway, would be a rather large chunk of change when you factor in other living expenses.

[dead0man]

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You can't really be born into an illegal situation if your born on US soil.

This isn't about those people, but for children born elsewhere and brought here by illegal parents at a young age.

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I maybe missunderstanding you here, but nations MUST be able to control their borders.

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The definition of ridiculously expensive is different for everyone and thus isn't something you can "cite". For sub-minimum wage immigrant workers community college tuition, around here anyway, would be a rather large chunk of change when you factor in other living expenses.
[/quote]Many states currently give illegal aliens the "in-state" tuition rates.  The DREAM bill itself (which again, I support) provides student loans and allows them to do the "work-study" thing.

[Frink]

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Your not misunderstanding me. I can accept lax controls and even screening or searches for purposes of domestic security I suppose. Governments, however, have no business telling private people where they can or cannot go and who they can or cannot contract with.

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Ok, misunderstood you.

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I took that into account when I made the statement I made.

[dead0man]

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Your not misunderstanding me. I can accept lax controls and even screening or searches for purposes of domestic security I suppose. Governments, however, have no business telling private people where they can or cannot go and who they can or cannot contract with.

All countries control (to some extent or another) who comes into their country.  I totally agree with you about letting them leave, a nation shouldn't be able to stop it's citizens from leaving.  But entering?, nations MUST be able to stop non-citizens from entering (and they all do).

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I took that into account when I made the statement I made.
[/quote]Then it's in no way "ridiculously expensive".

[Frink]

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This doesn't make it correct or even good policy.

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I disagree. Its an intolerable disgrace to liberty and just hurts every person involved in the process of border restriction. The potential negative effects are weak compared with the benefits.

Wow, starting to sound like a Libertarian here.

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It is if you put it in the broader context of the cost of living here which is quite expensive even in the lowest income brackets. I am, however, generalizing illegals as being low-skilled sub-minimum wage workers which is far from the universal truth among the few cases I'm privileged to know in real life.

[dead0man]

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This doesn't make it correct or even good policy.

If it's wrong or bad policy you'd think some nation would have tried it at some point in time or another....why do you think they haven't?

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I disagree. Its an intolerable disgrace to liberty and just hurts every person involved in the process of border restriction. The potential negative effects are weak compared with the benefits. [/quote]Potential negative effects?  Say Sweden adopted your policy of totally open borders, you don't see any potential negative effects that would be worse than any of your perceived benefits?  I can think of a few for you can't come up with any.

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Many libertarians do hold that view, but so do many socialists.  It's no more a libertarian position than gun rights or decriminalization of weed are.

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It is if you put it in the broader context of the cost of living here which is quite expensive even in the lowest income brackets. I am, however, generalizing illegals as being low-skilled sub-minimum wage workers which is far from the universal truth among the few cases I'm privileged to know in real life.
[/quote]Sure, but why are they going to college?  I doubt it would be to "expand their horizons" with some worthless liberal arts degree.  No, it would be to gain valuable skills (one would at least hope) and that would mean more money coming in in the future.  That's how college loans work for non illegals.  You don't pay upfront because you have no money because you have no skills.  After college you have the skills to make money, you then make money, you then pay off the loan.  Hopefully at least.  Some people don't get smart degrees.  Some people just aren't smart enough or lack the drive for whatever reason.  But that's the point of the loans and the work study programs....so people that can't pay for college can still go.  Which is why I've been saying "it's too expensive so they are 'effectively' being conscripted" isn't a good argument.

[Frink]

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Such tight border restrictions based on nationalism are a relatively recent phenomenon in many countries. Theirs no more logic to them than restricting movement between counties and cities.

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How would it cause a problem?

Immigrants are disproportionately young males in their prime working age. Sweden didn't have to spend money raising them. They'll be paying into the system for years and in the process keeping the generous Swedish welfare system operational in the face of a rapidly-aging population.

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Socialist countries (and I mean Socialist not European Welfare States), however, have historically been among the most desperate to restrict the freedom of movement of individuals. Its not an exclusively Libertarian position but its one that's well in line with Libertarianism among other ideologies.

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I'll agree on that. I was going to make a point against it earlier actually but thought the better of it. I just think if your thinking in current terms than the argument that its ridiculously expensive can definitely apply to certain situations. :/

[opebo]

cite that Community College is "ridiculously expensive"?

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Except of course the rich, who are entitled to everything, eh deadman?

[dead0man]

No, eh.

[opebo]

No, eh.

No, they're not entitled?  You don't believe in their right to 'their' property?

[tmthforu94]

I'm very proud of my Senator for co-sponsoring this. (Lugar)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I think its a bad idea really. I feel that it is essential to not encourage future illegal immigration and the best way to do that is to put a touchback provision into any legalization plan, requiring illegals to go back to their home country as part of the penalty for crossing the border illegally. Of course I think the IRS should hold them 100% responsible for any unpaid taxes incurred under a stolen ID and so should all debt collectors. The ID theft victim shouldn't be held liable and neither should the creditor be forced to eat the loss either. A crime was committed that is the equivalent of Larceny or embezzlement and some form of restitution should be required. If you want to make military service a potential way of paying of that crime to society, then fine, but I won't even begin to consider supporting it till the touchback and restitution provisions are included. Maybe then people will get the idea to follow the law. And repeat illegal entrants should be barred from ever entering the US legally upon the third attempt. Then of course make it impossible to survive as an illegal by cracking down on document fraud, employers (after implementing E-Verify). Illegal immigration would drop dramatically for fear of never getting to come here legally and millions who were considering it would switch over to legal avenues. Then lets reform the legal avenues reducing red tape and nonesence that delays the process to legal entry.

Anything less then is atrocious political correctness and pandering that will only make the problem worse down the road just like Social Security and the Debt and so many other problems, where weak politicians choose to kick it down the road.

[angus]

Somewhat favorable.  The alternatives are:  to deport them to places where they may not speak the language or understand the culture, or to ignore them altogether and add to the already permanent underclass, which would only serve the economic detriment of all Americans. 

As I understand it, there is also the requirement that they be high school grads and willing either to enlist in the military or acquire a university degree.  Seems reasonable.

[SPC]

I don't like the idea of conscripting foreigners into the military to make them citizens. Wouldn't they be doing much more good for society if they continued to provide needed services at a reasonable price?

[angus]

I don't like the idea of conscripting foreigners into the military to make them citizens. Wouldn't they be doing much more good for society if they continued to provide needed services at a reasonable price?

I don't think it's conscription, because you aren't ordered to report anywhere.  You're told that you can get a long-term permanent residency if you do one of several things, among the options is voluntary service in the military.  Those several options, I think, are geared toward both training and indoctrination.  University education provides some economic advantage.  Navy service, which has lots of specific jobs and excellent job training, provides economic advantage.  Even army service, which doesn't have the array of jobs and training that the navy has, but at least you're taught to sneak around, blow stuff up, and kill people, and that is a marketable skill.  Also, service in the US military or university education in the US gives you a certain indoctrination.  That's equally part of it, I think.  Loyalty to a military or to a school usually translates into geographic loyalty as well.  To put it in words the short attention span types might understand:  whether it's ARMY or a University of Alabama on your T-shirt, at least it's not Che Guevara on your T-shirt.

This bill addresses a complex issue.  Parents come from somewhere else, and have a knowledge of a language and a culture other than yankee.  They have at least the minimum set of skills that would allow them to survive in that other place.  (refugees and such excepted, of course)  Whether or not we should deport or amnesty them is a debate we could have, so long as we recognize from the start what the logistics are. 

On the other hand, the fate of someone who has been in the US since childhood, and likely knows little or nothing about any other culture and lacking the economic skills to live well in that culture (but possessing the economic skills not only to do well in this culture but to thrive and to contribute to its economic vitality and its diversity), should be subjected to a different debate.  It's a different set of humanitarian debating points.

[opebo]

I don't like the idea of conscripting foreigners into the military to make them citizens. Wouldn't they be doing much more good for society if they continued to provide needed services at a reasonable price?

Oh come on, SPC - one thing the US has is enormous reserves of surplus labor.  Unemployment is likely to be in the 10-20% range for decades.  What the Empire does need is vicious killers with nothing to live for.

[SPC]

I don't like the idea of conscripting foreigners into the military to make them citizens. Wouldn't they be doing much more good for society if they continued to provide needed services at a reasonable price?

I don't think it's conscription, because you aren't ordered to report anywhere.  You're told that you can get a long-term permanent residency if you do one of several things, among the options is voluntary service in the military.  Those several options, I think, are geared toward both training and indoctrination.  University education provides some economic advantage.  Navy service, which has lots of specific jobs and excellent job training, provides economic advantage.  Even army service, which doesn't have the array of jobs and training that the navy has, but at least you're taught to sneak around, blow stuff up, and kill people, and that is a marketable skill.  Also, service in the US military or university education in the US gives you a certain indoctrination.  That's equally part of it, I think.  Loyalty to a military or to a school usually translates into geographic loyalty as well.  To put it in words the short attention span types might understand:  whether it's ARMY or a University of Alabama on your T-shirt, at least it's not Che Guevara on your T-shirt.

This bill addresses a complex issue.  Parents come from somewhere else, and have a knowledge of a language and a culture other than yankee.  They have at least the minimum set of skills that would allow them to survive in that other place.  (refugees and such excepted, of course)  Whether or not we should deport or amnesty them is a debate we could have, so long as we recognize from the start what the logistics are. 

On the other hand, the fate of someone who has been in the US since childhood, and likely knows little or nothing about any other culture and lacking the economic skills to live well in that culture (but possessing the economic skills not only to do well in this culture but to thrive and to contribute to its economic vitality and its diversity), should be subjected to a different debate.  It's a different set of humanitarian debating points.

I see, so you willingly admit that this is an effort to indoctrinate immigrants into an affection for the U.S. government. I still feel that the immigrant gardner who provides labor for much cheaper than the domestic market can provide does more good than the immigrant in the army trained to kill Iraqis and Afghans.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I don't like the idea of conscripting foreigners into the military to make them citizens. Wouldn't they be doing much more good for society if they continued to provide needed services at a reasonable price?

It's not conscription.