France: Roma's hunting is opened

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

And, about the last political developments:

So, after the first who protested this which have been, iirc 1st, EU, then, some fringes of the UMP, then UN, then Catholics till the Pope, then police, saying the objectives were not realistic, then a bunch of stuffs from the Left after they finished their vacations, Villepin himself having strong words against it, but while it remains a big voice, he's seen as a theatrical hater of Sarkozy, then not much weight, though that's better than nothing.

So, after all of this with also had the French Protestant Federation which joined Catholics (not something big in France, Prots are tiny, but that's something more, shows an alliance against something beyond some traditional splits), then we also had Jean-Pierre Raffarin, former Prime Minister in France and who, unlike Villepin, isn't seen as an opportunist and isn't one, he always try to make the right gather itself in order it follows to policies of the govt, and sometimes turns into a hack for it, but here said that he disagreed with what was going on and called a 'rightist excess', and that the govt should change from the securitarist direction it took this summer.

So, after all of this, the 'Prime Minister' decided to organize an emergency meeting with ministers to speak about this situation in which everybody (almost except the Left) was criticizing. Result of the reunion? Immigration shouldn't be used as a political tool by any part, from François Fillon himself. Wow, .k, it's not like if it was the govt using it as a tool here...

Day after, 1st Council of Ministers post summer, words from Sarkozy, same: immigration shouldn't be used as a tool for polemics. .k...

More voices came from police officials saying that this was not realistic, costly, and pointless, since people will come back anyhow. Elysée: don't care, we continue, we have to reach objectives.

Then in one month 50 camps have been evacuated and planes began to send people back there. Objectives is 300 camps in 3 months.

And on the Left, after a few words from a spokesman after the vacations, since vacations are over we finally also had a bunch of words from several guys, most of them saying what Martine Aubry came to say to finally explain her silence: 'what's happening is awful, that's not what we want, that is blatant securitarist populism, but hehe! we're smart! while Sarkozy was doing it we didn't react! we didn't fall in his populist trap! we haven't run in the topics he chose!'. .k boys, wow, good, but meanwhile the silence was heavy, you have been absent of an important political moment, and has let the opportunity to others, like Religion, to embody a political opposition...

Anyhow, would seem that French would rather see the blatantness of this, the guy remains massively unpopular in polls. On the other hand, still according to polls a good proportion close to a majority, and according to securitarist measures it can be a majority, would also not disagree with such policies, Sarkozy measures would effectively match casual xenophobia and security problems concerns, but polls aren't clear and sometimes contradict each other, and anyhow show a clear victory of Left in next presidential elections and sometimes by big margins. This plus the fact that the majority could begin to crumble, the good old French right that Raffarin would embody, and that Villepin could try to gain, don't like such policies.

I would think his positions on immigration symbolized by what's happening with Roma will fail for him.

[opebo]

Isn't the irony here that Sarkozy is some kind of dirty Slav himself?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Isn't the irony here that Sarkozy is some kind of dirty Slav himself?

Hungarian......yeah

[Hash]

Isn't the irony here that Sarkozy is some kind of dirty Slav himself?

Hungarian......yeah

Hungarian aristocrat, though.

For the record, most Hungarians hate the Roms with a passion, so in a way it isn't ironic that an Hungarian aristocrat like Sarközy de Nagy-Bocsa hates Roms. All his ancestors likely did.

and Hungarians, lest we forget, are nationalist and irredentist.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Isn't the irony here that Sarkozy is some kind of dirty Slav himself?

Funny you should say that, I just heard a few days ago that, haha, the representative of the Rom community in Austria is Rudolf...Sarközy. And this Saközy to say that 'Sarközy' is a typical Rom name!

But by the way, Roma have nothing to do with Slavs, except maybe the fact that, yes, in the mind of the average French Romanians/Romas/Gitans, all of this are annoying foreigners...

For the record, most Hungarians hate the Roms with a passion, so in a way it isn't ironic that an Hungarian aristocrat like Sarközy de Nagy-Bocsa hates Roms. All his ancestors likely did.

Nah, he doesn't give a penny about Roma. That was just a super easy target.

[Hash]

Nah, he doesn't give a penny about Roma. That was just a super easy target.

I wouldn't be surprised if an Hungarian hated Roms. Would you?

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Nah, he doesn't give a penny about Roma. That was just a super easy target.

I wouldn't be surprised if an Hungarian hated Roms. Would you?

While I would think most of Europeans see Roma as weird people of which they are not fond, not sure 'hate' would be the right word, maybe they are still less liked in Eastern Europe but I would reserve hate to groups who actually cultivate hatred, that ones use to be fringes of societies.

And, really, in the case of Nicolas, I really think that's the last thing that busies his mind. An impressive event happened (Saint-Aignan), made by people that are seen as weird foreigners by most people, it was an easy target, then a perfect one for Sarkozy to show his 'muscles', because showing muscles is the only thing he's still able to do. And here it went, such guys haven't hatred, pure low pragmatism.

[Hash]

Nah, he doesn't give a penny about Roma. That was just a super easy target.

I wouldn't be surprised if an Hungarian hated Roms. Would you?

While I would think most of Europeans see Roma as weird people of which they are not fond, not sure 'hate' would be the right word, maybe they are still less liked in Eastern Europe but I would reserve hate to groups who actually cultivate hatred, that ones use to be fringes of societies.

You don't know Hungarians well then.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Nah, he doesn't give a penny about Roma. That was just a super easy target.

I wouldn't be surprised if an Hungarian hated Roms. Would you?

While I would think most of Europeans see Roma as weird people of which they are not fond, not sure 'hate' would be the right word, maybe they are still less liked in Eastern Europe but I would reserve hate to groups who actually cultivate hatred, that ones use to be fringes of societies.

You don't know Hungarians well then.

I would have expected you could answer something like that seeing your previous posts. I still think while some big resentment can exist toward groups of people, like maybe in Hungary toward Roma, a difference between the words 'hate' and 'resentment' should exist. Hating is actively cultivating a sentiment for me, a resentment is just a basic disliking more or less strong according to situations. That's why I would reserve 'hate' to those who actively spread 'hatred' which use to remain fringes anywhere in the world.

[Hash]

Nah, he doesn't give a penny about Roma. That was just a super easy target.

I wouldn't be surprised if an Hungarian hated Roms. Would you?

While I would think most of Europeans see Roma as weird people of which they are not fond, not sure 'hate' would be the right word, maybe they are still less liked in Eastern Europe but I would reserve hate to groups who actually cultivate hatred, that ones use to be fringes of societies.

You don't know Hungarians well then.

I would have expected you could answer something like that seeing your previous posts. I still think while some big resentment can exist toward groups of people, like maybe in Hungary toward Roma, a difference between the words 'hate' and 'resentment' should exist. Hating is actively cultivating a sentiment for me, a resentment is just a basic disliking more or less strong according to situations. That's why I would reserve 'hate' to those who actively spread 'hatred' which use to remain fringes anywhere in the world.

Really? Reading Hungarian history and looking at contemporary Hungarian politics does suggest otherwise. Hungary has been the most nationalist, irredentist nation in eastern Europe ever since Trianon; and they always seem to be picking fights with other nations and especially the Romas. They not only resent them, they borderline hate them. Mere 'resentment' doesn't explain why neo-Nazis poll nearly 20% in the country.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Nah, he doesn't give a penny about Roma. That was just a super easy target.

I wouldn't be surprised if an Hungarian hated Roms. Would you?

While I would think most of Europeans see Roma as weird people of which they are not fond, not sure 'hate' would be the right word, maybe they are still less liked in Eastern Europe but I would reserve hate to groups who actually cultivate hatred, that ones use to be fringes of societies.

You don't know Hungarians well then.

I would have expected you could answer something like that seeing your previous posts. I still think while some big resentment can exist toward groups of people, like maybe in Hungary toward Roma, a difference between the words 'hate' and 'resentment' should exist. Hating is actively cultivating a sentiment for me, a resentment is just a basic disliking more or less strong according to situations. That's why I would reserve 'hate' to those who actively spread 'hatred' which use to remain fringes anywhere in the world.

Really? Reading Hungarian history and looking at contemporary Hungarian politics does suggest otherwise. Hungary has been the most nationalist, irredentist nation in eastern Europe ever since Trianon; and they always seem to be picking fights with other nations and especially the Romas. They not only resent them, they borderline hate them. Mere 'resentment' doesn't explain why neo-Nazis poll nearly 20% in the country.

Then 20% of the population would 'hate'. That doesn't make a whole nation. 'Essentialiser' as we say French, meaning seriously applying a characteristic to someone because that one belongs to a group, in this case a nation, is rarely relevant.

I only know a bit about the rightist feelings in Hungary, but, .k, if as you say there are so big figures for groups that would be neo-nazis, we can say that globally the resentment toward minorities/foreign would be strong, to very strong in significant fringes, but still, I've troubles seriously using the word 'hate' to refer to an entire population. 

[Hash]

Then 20% of the population would 'hate'. That doesn't make a whole nation. 'Essentialiser' as we say French, meaning seriously applying a characteristic to someone because that one belongs to a group, in this case a nation, is rarely relevant.

I only know a bit about the rightist feelings in Hungary, but, .k, if as you say there are so big figures for groups that would be neo-nazis, we can say that globally the resentment toward minorities/foreign would be strong, to very strong in significant fringes, but still, I've troubles seriously using the word 'hate' to refer to an entire population. 

20% + 60% for the right which isn't extremely fond of non-Magyars, it adds up. I'm not saying Magyars are racist sh**ts, far from it, I love Magyar culture and I'm the first to find Trianon a load of crap. But undeniably anti-Roma feelings are stronger in Hungary than practically anywhere else. It's a little issue of semantics which I don't care much for whether they hate them, strongly dislike them, strong resentment or whatevsky.

btw, I suppose it isn't a mere coincidence that the neo-Nazis poll nearly 35-40% in areas with the biggest concentration of Romas (which is, ftr, merely 2% at tops). I think that's a little nugget which suggests that it isn't mere resentment that you have going on.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Then 20% of the population would 'hate'. That doesn't make a whole nation. 'Essentialiser' as we say French, meaning seriously applying a characteristic to someone because that one belongs to a group, in this case a nation, is rarely relevant.

I only know a bit about the rightist feelings in Hungary, but, .k, if as you say there are so big figures for groups that would be neo-nazis, we can say that globally the resentment toward minorities/foreign would be strong, to very strong in significant fringes, but still, I've troubles seriously using the word 'hate' to refer to an entire population. 

20% + 60% for the right which isn't extremely fond of non-Magyars, it adds up. I'm not saying Magyars are racist sh**ts, far from it, I love Magyar culture and I'm the first to find Trianon a load of crap. But undeniably anti-Roma feelings are stronger in Hungary than practically anywhere else. It's a little issue of semantics which I don't care much for whether they hate them, strongly dislike them, strong resentment or whatevsky.

btw, I suppose it isn't a mere coincidence that the neo-Nazis poll nearly 35-40% in areas with the biggest concentration of Romas (which is, ftr, merely 2% at tops). I think that's a little nugget which suggests that it isn't mere resentment that you have going on.

I prefer this post.

Well, yeah, I don't doubt the resentment can be very big, especially if as you say it polls 35-40% to neo-nazi-like stuffs in Roma areas, I don't doubt at all the contempt and the resentment might be very big there, or anywhere, I don't need such polls to be convinced Roma are really disliked here or there in Europe. Just had troubles seriously using the word 'hate' here, since for me it's reserved for those actively preach hatred, not for a population who have a feeling toward an other one even if a very negative one, I would reserve it for active groups. See, I wouldn't even apply it to the German population during Nazi Germany, but only to actual Nazi groups and organizations.

On the other hand, I wonder about Flemish, generally, toward Wallons, if that's not hatred that could be a big hint of that...

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Then 20% of the population would 'hate'. That doesn't make a whole nation. 'Essentialiser' as we say French, meaning seriously applying a characteristic to someone because that one belongs to a group, in this case a nation, is rarely relevant.

I only know a bit about the rightist feelings in Hungary, but, .k, if as you say there are so big figures for groups that would be neo-nazis, we can say that globally the resentment toward minorities/foreign would be strong, to very strong in significant fringes, but still, I've troubles seriously using the word 'hate' to refer to an entire population. 

20% + 60% for the right which isn't extremely fond of non-Magyars, it adds up. I'm not saying Magyars are racist sh**ts, far from it, I love Magyar culture and I'm the first to find Trianon a load of crap. But undeniably anti-Roma feelings are stronger in Hungary than practically anywhere else. It's a little issue of semantics which I don't care much for whether they hate them, strongly dislike them, strong resentment or whatevsky.

btw, I suppose it isn't a mere coincidence that the neo-Nazis poll nearly 35-40% in areas with the biggest concentration of Romas (which is, ftr, merely 2% at tops). I think that's a little nugget which suggests that it isn't mere resentment that you have going on.

which groups are you defining as neo-Nazis?

[Hash]

Then 20% of the population would 'hate'. That doesn't make a whole nation. 'Essentialiser' as we say French, meaning seriously applying a characteristic to someone because that one belongs to a group, in this case a nation, is rarely relevant.

I only know a bit about the rightist feelings in Hungary, but, .k, if as you say there are so big figures for groups that would be neo-nazis, we can say that globally the resentment toward minorities/foreign would be strong, to very strong in significant fringes, but still, I've troubles seriously using the word 'hate' to refer to an entire population. 

20% + 60% for the right which isn't extremely fond of non-Magyars, it adds up. I'm not saying Magyars are racist sh**ts, far from it, I love Magyar culture and I'm the first to find Trianon a load of crap. But undeniably anti-Roma feelings are stronger in Hungary than practically anywhere else. It's a little issue of semantics which I don't care much for whether they hate them, strongly dislike them, strong resentment or whatevsky.

btw, I suppose it isn't a mere coincidence that the neo-Nazis poll nearly 35-40% in areas with the biggest concentration of Romas (which is, ftr, merely 2% at tops). I think that's a little nugget which suggests that it isn't mere resentment that you have going on.

which groups are you defining as neo-Nazis?

Jobbik. They're the closest thing to Nazis in Europe excluding the NPD.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sarkozy further ridiculing himself, more and more populist, sillier and sillier.... Poor country.

[Hash]

Sarkozy further ridiculing himself, more and more populist, sillier and sillier.... Poor country.

The government is going to the dump. While Sarkozy isn't as unpopular as Chirac was in 2006 or so, he's got low 30 approvals and I fail to see how they can bounce back before the cantonals in the spring. I most certainly hope Sarkozy loses in 2012, but on the other hand I most certainly don't want an old PS stalwart like Aubry winning. Only DSK is half decent out of the likely cast of candidates (assuming a good guy like Borloo doesn't run). Yeah, poor country.

[Insula Dei]

On the other hand, I wonder about Flemish, generally, toward Wallons, if that's not hatred that could be a big hint of that...

It isn't. In general what we have going on round here are just some 'ordinary' political problems which are not driven by racial tensions. If there is electoral gain to be found in nationalism, that finds its origin in the media and mainstream parties blaming the 'unworkable' structure of the Belgian state. Racial hatred plays no role whatsoever in the Flemish Mainstream.


Hungarians hating the Roma is very much a fact. And unless my memory is  way off, they aren't particulary well liked in Romania either.

[Insula Dei]

On topic: I am really angry abouth both these deportations and the way the Member of the European Commission for Luxemburg was handled by the French.

[GMantis]

On the other hand, I wonder about Flemish, generally, toward Wallons, if that's not hatred that could be a big hint of that...

It isn't. In general what we have going on round here are just some 'ordinary' political problems which are not driven by racial tensions. If there is electoral gain to be found in nationalism, that finds its origin in the media and mainstream parties blaming the 'unworkable' structure of the Belgian state. Racial hatred plays no role whatsoever in the Flemish Mainstream.


Hungarians hating the Roma is very much a fact. And unless my memory is  way off, they aren't particulary well liked in Romania either.

The Gypsies are hated in every single Eastern European country with a significant population of them.

[Antonio the Sixth]

On topic: I am really angry abouth both these deportations and the way the Member of the European Commission for Luxemburg was handled by the French the utter idiot who currently (but not for long) governs France.

Fixed.

[Insula Dei]

On topic: I am really angry abouth both these deportations and the way the Member of the European Commission for Luxemburg was handled by the French the utter idiot who currently (but not for long) governs France.

Fixed.

You're right.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

On the other hand, I wonder about Flemish, generally, toward Wallons, if that's not hatred that could be a big hint of that...

It isn't. In general what we have going on round here are just some 'ordinary' political problems which are not driven by racial tensions. If there is electoral gain to be found in nationalism, that finds its origin in the media and mainstream parties blaming the 'unworkable' structure of the Belgian state. Racial hatred plays no role whatsoever in the Flemish Mainstream.

Well, we can use the word 'hate' very easily to describe a feeling of strong disliking, but as I tried to write here, if we wanna be serious, I think it should be reserved to those who actively preach hatred, by one way or an other.

Still if we wanna speak seriously about the use of this word, I would think we can less speak of hatred when it is about a majority toward a minority seen as a nuisance, you don't hate someone you find inferior to yourself, you despise him, you loathe him, but you don't hate.

I would think you develop a feeling as strong as hatred mainly toward someone you see as a competitor, someone who is, or that you see as, annoying and as a big enough challenger to develop a big feeling such as hatred.

Which could kinda be the case for Flemish toward Wallons, and in this case especially because of the historical record, in which it was Wallons who dominated during a long while, possibly making born hatred amongst Flemish, and one which has been cultivated and which can now express itself with Flemish having an economical, then social, advantage on Wallons. And well, I've seen and heard several Flemish in media and a bit of anecdotes in my life, some behaviors, some words, which if it wouldn't be hatred, it wouldn't be far. That being said, in any case, if we speak seriously we can't generalize, indeed.

I think generally you would only hate someone you find superior to you or competing with you. Which would be the case about Jews in the 30s when they were seen as dominating the world by some people, or nowadays still with Jews seen as manipulating the Western World by some Westerners, which can give New World Order, or still some hatred by some Palestinians toward Jews seen as all-permit oppressors, but there is no hatred from those who dominate, Jews, toward Palestinians, seen as a nuisance by them, or some hatred from some Muslims toward Western World, seen as awful dominators responsible of all problems, possibly giving hatred as big as some leading to terrorism, but the only hatred you can find in West toward Muslims is amongst those who think Muslims are an actual threat for the 'Christian civilizations' (and we all know the nuts it can give...), then it's when they are seen as a competitor.

In short you wouldn't hate someone you find inferior to you, hate would be reserved to someone you see as a dominator or a challenger.

On topic: I am really angry abouth both these deportations and the way the Member of the European Commission for Luxemburg was handled by the French the utter idiot who currently (but not for long) governs France.

Fixed.

Well, they are our official representants, and we even elected them, by 53% of a 85% turnout. But yeah, France wouldn't be summed up to them.

About this affair with Viviane Reding, I think both would have faulted here. First, Reding, she should have paid more attention with her criticism, when a criticism is too excessive it disqualifies the criticism, and then, look, she feel forced to present apologies, then awakening herself and the criticisms she could hold toward this, and there are some. Seems that France respected the European laws more over, it was far more a psychological politician problem than a technical judiciary problem, then criticisms should have been mainly hold in the former realm, and without useless counter-productive inaccuracy.

That being said, yeah, some French reactions have been totally stupid and blamable, I think of a glorious French UMP senator, Mr Philippe Marini saying that he 'would have preferred that Luxembourg doesn't exist'.

But, if the so loved European Commission wanna hold some criticisms and not being back fired, then words must be chosen, in order to well, being effective. That being said, if France broke some European laws in this affair, then it has indeed to be condemned, and that could be an interesting affair, giving a bit of a political importance to what's happening in EU institutions. Though, wouldn't make EU more popular...