Wall Street Reform Passes

[Torie]

I will have to read a WSJ editorial or two to be reminded why I am supposed to dislike this bill. Overall, it seems quite sensible to me - indeed almost non controversial. The derivative/hedge thing will be worked out. Nobody wants to interfere with real risk reduction hedging using the more efficient tool of derivatives.

I am also not too worried about the government potentially having more bailout authority in the future. It really doesn't matter. Under times of stress, the government will get the authority to do what it wants anyway.

[Sam Spade]

The bill really does very little as in comparison to present circumstances. 

Bank profits will be squeezed a decent bit due to certain rules and what little small business/individual lending that is presently going on will completely cease under these laws, but simply put, if you're not in mostly cash now and have your debts paid off, you're probably going to be in trouble with what's coming anyway, so who cares...

[Brittain33]

Hopefully this dumb sh**t and HCR are repealed as quickly as possible before too much damage is done. This is what happens, America, when you get caught up in Idiot-mania.

Yoooo-hoooo, we're still curious what your solution is...

[Iosif]

Hopefully this dumb sh**t and HCR are repealed as quickly as possible before too much damage is done. This is what happens, America, when you get caught up in Idiot-mania.

Yoooo-hoooo, we're still curious what your solution is...

The private market, down with the fed, abolish taxes, no to government, Ron Paul, repeal civil rights, Rand Paul, Thomas Jefferson, abolish the department of education, being healthy is a privilege, corporate whores, war mongering fascists, liberty from tyranny, freedom from the jews.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Hopefully this dumb sh**t and HCR are repealed as quickly as possible before too much damage is done. This is what happens, America, when you get caught up in Idiot-mania.

Yoooo-hoooo, we're still curious what your solution is...

You mean bitching and moaning isn't a solution?  Man you're tough to get along with

[k-onmmunist]

Don't reform it, destroy it.

[fezzyfestoon]

Hopefully this dumb sh**t and HCR are repealed as quickly as possible before too much damage is done. This is what happens, America, when you get caught up in Idiot-mania.

Yoooo-hoooo, we're still curious what your solution is...

The private market, down with the fed, abolish taxes, no to government, Ron Paul, repeal civil rights, Rand Paul, Thomas Jefferson, abolish the department of education, being healthy is a privilege, corporate whores, war mongering fascists, liberty from tyranny, freedom from the jews.

And what, in fantasy-land, would then happen from doing those things?  We all sing kumbaya and get along just like we would just without those horrible taxes?

[Storebought]

The day that I never hear the words "stimulus", "reform",  or "comprehensive" again can't come soon enough.

[opebo]

The day that I never hear the words "stimulus", "reform",  or "comprehensive" again can't come soon enough.

What is the fantasy scenario you are imagining which will end the use of those terms, Storebought?

[Storebought]

The day that I never hear the words "stimulus", "reform",  or "comprehensive" again can't come soon enough.

What is the fantasy scenario you are imagining which will end the use of those terms, Storebought?

The 'fantasy scenario' playing out right now in Germany, to the deep consternation of the Obama administration.

[opebo]

What is the fantasy scenario you are imagining which will end the use of those terms, Storebought?

The 'fantasy scenario' playing out right now in Germany, to the deep consternation of the Obama administration.

I haven't been closely following the German news, other than to note the face that the 'Greek crisis' has saved the (already better than the US) economy by devaluing the Euro. 

Surely you realize there is almost no comparison between the German and the American cases?  And why would Obama be consternated about anything which happened in that irrelavent (to American politics) place?

[TheGreatOne]

I think this country seriously needs to re-evaluate free market and modern capitalism.  Capitalism depends on everyone making a profit or breaking even in order to survive.  This means that earnings must be less than the services and products sold.  How is it possible to sell all goods and services in a profit-oriented system, where everyone else is also trying to make a profit?  This will lead to overproduction no matter how efficient we make our economic system, which means the majority of people will not be able to sell their goods at a profitable rate.  Ultimately, there will be an elite class of people, who have all the money and power, and the majority of the middle class will fall into the lower class (slaves, serfs). 

Since Capitalism is so unsustainable why do we still practice it?  Capitalism has only been around since the 1700s, and it has only survived because strong countries have taken advantage of weaker countries or people through military dominance.  During the 1700s we had slaves that could do all of our work for us, and we were able to dump our goods in third world countries that did not have the technological means to produce goods or exploit their resources.  We also had a lot less people living in capitalist countries.  During the 1800s, European and American workers were treated very poorly, and the end of slavery created a larger class of pissed off workers.  At the latter half of the 1800s and the early 1900s, we started seeing our first major backlashes against capitalism.  There were just too many workers that were being treated poorly that the social elite could not quell the people any longer. Unions were formed and government regulations were introduced.  The depression of the 1930s paved the way for a new type of capitalist system called the Keynesian model.  However, Keynesians has only survived because the U.S. was successful in World War 2 as well as exploiting the resources of other countries over the past 70 years. 

Now the all the countries in Europe, Asia and South America are caught up to us or catching up.  The pie is getting smaller.  Not everyone can make a profit.  Either Capitalism dies or democracy dies.  I prefer the former.

[opebo]

Actually I'm no fan of democracy either, TheGreatOne, but capitalism is even worse.

But it can be fixed with use of a high level of Keynesianism.  The way to get rid of the excess production is redistribution - things like several months holiday per year and/or very short work weeks, plus a mandated comfortable dole, etc. 

[k-onmmunist]

No. You can't reform capitalism ohpeebow. It must be destroyed - that's the only way to rid the world of its evil.

[Beet]

If you look at at modern capitalism in the long run, from its origins in the Netherlands in the 17th century, it is clear that it has always been accompanied by greater amounts of two things. (1) is greater amounts of or access to new markets, and (2) is greater amounts of financial sophistication, leverage, and debt.

(1) is sustainable, I think, for a while yet. The Chinese market is nowhere near saturated in the long run, and either are any of the BRIC countries or regions. In 20 years India will be the world's most populous nation, despite India's impressive growth thus far the entire subcontinent is a practical "virgin lands" for capitalism. Then after that there is Africa. (2) is much more questionable. The developed world seems tapped out, or very close to it.

Nonetheless, capitalism is a bad alternative but better, much better, than any of the others. What may happen instead is that the expected economic returns or performance that we expect to get from it diminish. This would not be a horrendous outcome, so long as a mediocre level of economic performance was stable and sustainable, and humanely distributed. Developed countries certainly don't lack for 'stuff', and we never have to. What would be horrendous would be to allow the system to somehow careen out of control and entirely crash or unravel.

[opebo]

(2) is greater amounts of financial sophistication, leverage, and debt.

All leverage or debt does is provide an excuse for increasing production.  Replace that with redistribution and you have the excuse.. problem solved. 

[TheGreatOne]

Actually I'm no fan of democracy either, TheGreatOne, but capitalism is even worse.

But it can be fixed with use of a high level of Keynesianism.  The way to get rid of the excess production is redistribution - things like several months holiday per year and/or very short work weeks, plus a mandated comfortable dole, etc. 

Okay then who buys the excess goods?  You need a consumer.  Is the American government going to buy all the excess and bankrupt itself?  I can't see a good end to capitalism, even with keynesian economics.  It can't last forever when everyone is able to compete.

[opebo]

Okay then who buys the excess goods?  You need a consumer.  Is the American government going to buy all the excess and bankrupt itself?  I can't see a good end to capitalism, even with keynesian economics.  It can't last forever when everyone is able to compete.

'Buy'?  What does that even mean?  Just print the money.. or simply order them made at gunpoint and throw them into the sea if there are too many of them.  Get creative.. don't be boxed in by the idea of 'money' or 'bankruptcy'. 

The thing to remember about economics is there are real productive capacities out there being ordered by the State - the market is just a fiction created by the privatization of these resources.  We allow a lot of little barons control over our resources, so they tend to destroy them, mismanage them, etc etc.  There is no need to allow this.

[Lunar]

I read that 3 GOP Senators and 3 GOP Representatives supported the bill.  I know the Senators, who were the Representatives?

Cao..?

[Lunar]

Ah, Cao, Castle, and .. Walter Jones? 

Can anyone explain Jones

[Torie]

Ah, Cao, Castle, and .. Walter Jones?  

Can anyone explain Jones

No. He is a very odd character in more ways than one. But on this one, I think I would have joined him if I were in Congress.

[Lief 🗽]

Walter Jones also endorsed Ron Paul for president and voted to censor Joe Wilson. He's not really normal.

[??????????]

Ah, Cao, Castle, and .. Walter Jones?  

Can anyone explain Jones

No. He is a very odd character in more ways than one. But on this one, I think I would have joined him if I were in Congress.

Yes, because the government should tell people what loans they should take. lol conservative

[opebo]

Yes, because the government should tell people what loans they should take. lol conservative

It is rather naive to think that any other arrangement is possible.