Spain PM-elect: Troops out of Iraq

[angus]

Actually, there was some question intially about whether the hits were made by Basque separatists or by AlQaeda.  The Popular Party appeared to suffer from two separate but related fallouts from Thursday's attacks:  First was a sense that the government had withheld information.  Second, as the al Qaeda link became clearer, there was a sense of outrage that Aznar's pro-American policies had put Spain on the firing line of terrorist groups seeking reprisals. But the attacks certainly lost the Popular Party some public confidence, given that polls taken a few days earlier showed them ahead.  But Aznar had eight good years.  And I'm sure George Bush will still go on hunting expeditions with the King of Spain.  And you needn't expect a worldwide trend to the socialists.  Just a few weeks ago, Greece ousted its socialist party, in favor of a slightly more business-friendly group, for the first time since 1993.  And Blair already is on the religious left, so a shift there would be to the right.  And the Conservative party in england would likely not be hostile to a general war on terror.  And Italy?  Well, like Spain and Greece, it's a bit more third-world than its neighbors, but $ilvio Berlu$coni has friends in all the right places.

On a personal note, I rode my bicycle in as it's another warm sunny day here in New Spain.  And my Spanish colleague Edgar (from the Canary Islands) happened alongside me in his car.  He was listening to the news about Spain's elections on public radio station KQED at the time.  Said he'd gone to the consulate in SF (I guess that's where all the foreigners go to vote around here) and voted for the Popular Party.  He had been on the phone to friends in Madrid and in the Canary Islands, and became quite convinced that these attacks changed the mood.  As Edgar has told me before, when Generalisimo Franco is still fresh on the minds of voters over 30, the socialists don't look quite so bad by comparison.  I suspect the Bush people will dispatch Powell soon enough to try to build some bridges with Zapatero.  Don't you?

[angus]

That's a stupid reason to waste a nuke.

I like my French fries with black pepper and a little mayo.
My sister eats hers with mustard and ketchup.
Becky white used to eat them dry, with a little salt.

[angus]

Vegetarians always taste better than omnivores.  Remember that movie "Alive!"  Find out if there are any on the plane before it crashes.  

[angus]

You people are reading way too much into the Spanish election.  And viewing it through the lenses offered by your own immersions in your own electorate.  The spaniards were angry at Aznar.  But Aznar is good-looking and a smooth talker, so they were ready to overlook the Iraq thing.  But then the strikes happen.  If you're in the USA or England, you rally around your leaders during those times, Spaniards don't.  In general, spanish-speaking people cannot be judged by the political standards by which you judge english-speaking people.

[angus]

There won't be a president Kerry...

Wise.

Supersoulty, that's pretty much exactly the take in the WSJ today, as I pointed out in another thread.  I hadn't had my daily dose of GOP propaganda when I made my earlier post, but I do think many Republicans will become unnecessarily reactionary.  Edgar was very upset about the whole thing, but he's waaaay more conservative than I am.  It'll be interesting to hear what they're saying on FNC tonight.  I usually agree with your general logic on this forum, but I hope your last sentence is wrong this time.

[angus]

Fine, let them suck up to the terrorists. Let's just defend America from terrorism.  To hell with Europe.  Wonder how they'll feel over there when the terrorists detanate a small nuke in Madrid or Paris.  Think that will get their attention?  I doubt it.

"we cannot simply say:  Now that they have a socialist government, The hell with them!  We need to do everything we can to help them to investigate this."

       --David Gergen (just now on Fox)

[angus]

Look for them to hit the Brits or Italy next.  You'll immediately see hundreds of thousands in the steets demonstrating not against the terrorists that hit them, but Bush and Blair.  I think I'm going to throw up.

You are 200% right on that one.

David Trimble is on C-SPAN just now being fairly philosophical about the whole thing and discussing the possibility of 'emboldening' the base.  You may be right, supersoulty, but I still hope you're wrong.

[angus]

Now Trimble is answering questions about the event.  This is good.  Check out CSPAN.  He's pretty staunch in his support of Bush-Blair at the moment, the way I read it.

[angus]

Thank you agcat and Lewis, I must admit I'm a little confused at the moment.  You both make excellent arguments.  I just need to think about it all.  Thanks for the response, both of you.

[angus]

Hans Blix on Hardball now!

details to follow...

[angus]

Blix is hard to watch.  Mostly it was about iraq.  They're coming around.  These diplomatic games go slowly, and we are an impatient people.  relax.

[angus]

Oh, now David Kay!

[angus]

... without any evidence ...

Still, how can they be so stupid.  I'm getting a headache from this.

Hard to say.  Be careful of using that phrase within hours of you heard a condemnation.  still, we have to work with the new people.  CNNHN just quoted Powell saying, "I hope we'll be able to find common ground in the fight against terrorism."

[angus]

All you hawks will be glad to know that Spain is an anomaly:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62387-2004Mar16.html

[angus]

Mort,  Thanks for the link.
The word is apaciguamiento.  The article is well-written and informative, as Brooks' articles usually are.  But he can be a bit reactionary.  The statement "There will be other aftershocks from the Spanish election." will be proven false, I hope.  You can find statements like this one, by Romano Prodi, "It is clear that using force is not the answer to resolving the conflict with terrorists." But you can also find statements like this one, from Il Corriere della Sela, "March 11 is going to be more important than 11 September" for Europe. The Madrid attacks they say, mark the beginning of "a European war that the [European] Union is going to have to fight from now on with a far greater degree of unity and solidarity than it has shown over the past few months."  

And what a beautiful language:
Tuttavia all'Europa serve una coscienza e dunque la capacità di compiere delle scelte. Si può decidere che la risposta americana al terrorismo è sbagliata, ma allora è necessario avere qualche idea alternativa ed efficace. L'11 settembre ha prodotto l'Afghanistan e l'Iraq. Chi ha criticato l'America, con suo buon diritto, non aveva messo nel conto un attentato di matrice islamica contro un Paese europeo. Dopo l'11 marzo, se si ammette che chi ha attaccato la Spagna ha voluto colpire l'intera Unione, è indispensabile che sia l'Europa a rispondere al terrorismo. Dimostrando, se del caso, di avere una ricetta migliore di quella di cui dispone l'America. Il disimpegno pacifista è una risposta? A suo modo lo è, ma difficilmente l'Europa sfuggirebbe per questa via ad altre dosi di nichilismo terrorista. «Madrid, Italia» si è scritto nei giorni scorsi. Se non è solo retorica, è opportuno trarne le conseguenze.

My italian is rusty, but it seems they're fairly philosophical, and trying to question their own failures, as well as those of the US.  Why rush to judgement?  You may find that their own interests will guide them into greater cooperation in the war on terror much better than pushing and shoving will.

[angus]

"Il disimpegno pacifista è una risposta?"

I read that as serious question.  Not scholarly advice.

"A suo modo lo è, ma difficilmente l'Europa sfuggirebbe per questa via ad altre dosi di nichilismo terrorista"

This is real debate.  Nothing wrong with that.  And is but a sampling of the many fine editorials written throughout the region.  Remember how pissy we all got (And rightly so!) when Bush suggested Kerry is inviting foreign intervention into our elections?  That is a two-way street my friend.

[angus]

I'd like more of the context to understand exactly what Prodi is saying. But the man is viewed as a joke by most people, so he doesn't really mean much himself.

Many of the most influential people in history were viewed as a 'joke'   In any event, here's some context:

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Politica/2004/03_Marzo/13/prodi.shtml

[angus]

rwn, take a look at that Michael Duff piece I posted on one of jmfcst's other threads about Kerry and his pointing finger.  It's off-topic on that thread, but you might enjoy reading it.

[angus]

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits, infidel!

I had a brief conversation with Edgar today.  He's still glum about Zapatero, and is convinced our Head of State will be persona non grata over there now.  I hope he's wrong.

[angus]

Exactly.  Zapatero is posturing.  Edgar just misses Aznar.  I must admit, I liked that porn-star moustache.  Not as cool as Fox's though.

[angus]

Yes it is.  And I'm surprised the Al-Qaeda conspiracy theorists haven't yet brought up that connection.  Thoughtful of you to stir that pot.  Makes me wish I'd thought of it earlier.