How many Presidential Elections were stolen?
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  How many Presidential Elections were stolen?
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Question: How many Presidential Elections were stolen?
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Author Topic: How many Presidential Elections were stolen?  (Read 11569 times)
Citizen (The) Doctor
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2010, 11:28:54 PM »

1876 and 2000. We were better off with a President Hayes, but definitely worse off with a (2nd) President Bush.

1824 had some serious issues, but wasn't quite stolen. 1800 ended up not being stolen. It would have been easy for some shenanigans to have made the difference in some other close ones such as 1888 and 1916.

Pretty much this.  Though I have to say 1992 and 1912 were pretty f**ked up.
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Derek
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2010, 11:42:39 PM »

1876 and 2000. We were better off with a President Hayes, but definitely worse off with a (2nd) President Bush.

1824 had some serious issues, but wasn't quite stolen. 1800 ended up not being stolen. It would have been easy for some shenanigans to have made the difference in some other close ones such as 1888 and 1916.

Pretty much this.  Though I have to say 1992 and 1912 were pretty f**ked up.

Why all these discussions since 2000? I could say 2008 was stolen because of ACORN and the New Black Panther Party who scared away old people at the polls.
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Badger
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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2010, 10:02:12 AM »
« Edited: July 16, 2010, 02:02:44 PM by Badger »

1876 and 2000.

We need to drop the myth of 1960. For the umpteenth time, even if we assume that the Cook County machine "stole" at least 110,000 votes (or more accurately, 110k more votes than any downstate GOP machines may've "stolen" for Nixon) to flip Illinois, Kennedy still would've won a majority in the Electoral College without Illinois.

Not you, too?  

Indeed. Very disappointing, I didn't expect him to be that much of a hack....

Well, I don't view Badger as a hack at all, TC.  He has to have some reason to say it, which I'd love to hear.  I'm sure he just differs with the Supreme Court ruling, but we'll see.

I vehemently disagree with the Supreme Court's ruling. Yet another piece of evidence that Scalia's "originalist construction" pose is pure bs. He votes an almost consistently conservative line regardless of stare decsis or founder intent, and his vote to stop the 2000 recount is a prime example.

Gore also won the popular vote by over half a million votes, I consider any election determined by the anti-democratic anachronism that is the Electoral College to be "stolen"

Regarding the recount which never happened as it was stopped by the Supremes, it strongly appears the judge in charge of the terminated recount, Terry Lewis, was going to require a recount of overvotes as well as undervotes as originally requested by the Gore team. Under the standards of vote tabulation most likely to be applied in the recount, Gore won Florida by a few hundred votes.

http://www.newsweek.com/2001/11/18/the-final-word.html

This was not accidental or solely due to 5 conservative supreme court justices. The Bush team used every conceivable opportunity to delay and stall at every turn. The most memorable, though FAR from only, example was the "Brooks Brothers riot" where a bunch of paid GOP staffers physically disrupted and successfully intimidated the Miami-Dade County election canvassing board into stopping recount proceedings even after sheriffs deputies restored order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot#cite_note-5
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/24/us/counting-vote-miami-dade-county-protest-influenced-miami-dade-s-decision-stop.html

These kind of strong arm tactics would make the Corleone Family proud. This was only the most visible of their campaign's heavy handed tactics employed to kill the clock throughout the process. Florida Sec. of State/Bush Campaign state co-chair Katherine Harris worked hard to ram through her "official" tabulation and slam the door on any/all attempts for recount.

Again, none of this was accidental. The 5 member majority in Bush v. Gore held that no constitutionally permissible recount meeting equal protection standards could be held by the December 12 deadline for recounts under Florida law (the Supreme's decision was issued on December 12, 3 days after staying the Florida Supreme Court's decision ordering a statewide manual recount). Without getting into the many questionable basises for that decision under both the US Constitution and Florida state law, both campaigns' legal beagles were obviously aware of that December 12 date, and the Bush campaign's clear 'Plan A' strategy was to run the clock without a recount occurring, so they could then argue "sorry, whether the recount would've changed the election's outcome or not it can't be done now".

And it worked. Perfectly. By a 5-4 margin. Hail to the Chief.

No discussion here would be complete without mentioning the very aggressive--and error riddled--steps Harris's office took in the year leading up to the election to scrub state voter rolls of ineligible felons. Suffice to say the process is shown to have wrongly deregistered many individuals--overwhelmingly African-Americans--by a combination of legal and clerical errors that were so pervasive it strains credulity to write it off as mere bureaucratic mismanagement, but rather a calculated attempt to weed out likely Democratic voters. That isn't an accusation of a "conspiracy theory", but rather simply dirty politics.

http://dir.salon.com/story/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/index.html

Given the extent of errors in the system and African-Americans and the poor being very disproportionately targeted, I can't fathom that the number of wrongly disenfranchised voters turned away at the polls throughout the entire state of Florida wouldn't have erased Bush's "official" 537 vote lead--out of almost 6 million votes counted statewide.
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rbt48
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2010, 02:03:08 PM »
« Edited: July 01, 2010, 02:30:04 PM by rbt48 »

From a Republican perspective, 1884 and 1960.

In 1884, the Democrats won New York by 1,047 votes which turned the election from Blaine to Cleveland.  Tammany Hall did a better job padding New York City results than did upstate Republicans.  

In 1960, the Dailey machine stole Illinois (9,142 votes), Johnson's cronies easily came up with enough fictious votes in Texas (46,257 votes, not a tall order in Texas), and Missouri (9,980 votes), where the St Louis machine produced the needed margin.
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Bo
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2010, 02:53:00 PM »

From a Republican perspective, 1884 and 1960.

In 1884, the Democrats won New York by 1,047 votes which turned the election from Blaine to Cleveland.  Tammany Hall did a better job padding New York City results than did upstate Republicans.  

In 1960, the Dailey machine stole Illinois (9,142 votes), Johnson's cronies easily came up with enough fictious votes in Texas (46,257 votes, not a tall order in Texas), and Missouri (9,980 votes), where the St Louis machine produced the needed margin.

If you're going to talk about 1884 (which I agree with), don't forget the many black voters were illegally disenfrachised throughout the South. Also, the same point applies for 1916.
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Badger
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« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2010, 05:04:26 PM »

From a Republican perspective, 1884 and 1960.

In 1884, the Democrats won New York by 1,047 votes which turned the election from Blaine to Cleveland.  Tammany Hall did a better job padding New York City results than did upstate Republicans.  

In 1960, the Dailey machine stole Illinois (9,142 votes), Johnson's cronies easily came up with enough fictious votes in Texas (46,257 votes, not a tall order in Texas), and Missouri (9,980 votes), where the St Louis machine produced the needed margin.

That 46k+ votes in 1960 Texas constituted a full 2.0% margin of victory. Yes, "Landslide Lyndon's" familiarity with ballot box stuffing wasn't unknown, but enough for a full 2% statewide shift? Let's not get crazy here.

Regarding MO (and NJ, before anyone mentions it), is there any evidence of widespread voter fraud by Democratic machines, or are we just assuming this occurred enough to flip every close Kennedy state in the country? For that matter, don't we expect that GOP political organizations in heavily GOP areas of these states stole votes for Nixon? (Possibly not Texas though as IIRC most of the local machines still were Democratic controlled, even in heavily GOP voting Houston and Dallas) Isn't there an equal (lacking) basis to assume GOP operatives in Nixon's southern California base stole enough votes to barely steal the state away from Kennedy? Or are Republican politicians overwhelmingly too noble and pure of heart--particularly Nixon--to engage in such skulduggery? Roll Eyes
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Franzl
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« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2010, 05:14:19 PM »

The correct answer is 2.

1876 and 2000.

2000 isn't as clear a legal case, of course, and I'm not arguing that the Supreme Court should have ruled differently (I'm not informed enough to have an opinion on that), but it certainly wasn't a fair election in Florida, so I feel comfortable in calling it stolen.
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rbt48
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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2010, 08:35:25 PM »

There are several books about the election of 1876.  Here are the two I have read:

http://www.amazon.com/One-Vote-Disputed-Presidential-Elections/dp/070061608X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278120655&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Fraud-Century-Rutherford-Samuel-Election/dp/0743255526/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278120750&sr=1-2

The first of these is a Republican persepctive and the second is a Democrats view of it (well, overly simplified descriptions, but the basic thrust is accurate).

Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote another that I haven't read:
http://www.amazon.com/Centennial-Crisis-Disputed-Election-1876/dp/0375713212/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278120750&sr=1-3

and here is an older one from 1906:
http://www.amazon.com/Hayes-Tilden-Disputed-Presidential-Election-1876/dp/1112407308/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278120750&sr=1-4


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WillK
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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2010, 11:20:06 PM »

Whats with 1824?  Unusual election, but how is it considered stolen?

Simple Question.

I say 4:
1824
1876
1960
2000
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Ameriplan
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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2010, 11:25:28 PM »

Whats with 1824?  Unusual election, but how is it considered stolen?

Simple Question.

I say 4:
1824
1876
1960
2000

Because the filthy Republicans and Clayites went to the House and overturned the will of the people. 2000 wasn't stolen, but of course I only say that because Gore was a prick.
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WillK
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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2010, 11:46:17 PM »

Of the reported popular vote, Jackson got 41%, less than the reported popular vote of Adams+Clay.   6 of the states (with roughly 25% of the population) didn't report a popular vote count. So what will of the people?


Because the filthy Republicans and Clayites went to the House and overturned the will of the people. 2000 wasn't stolen, but of course I only say that because Gore was a prick.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2010, 04:37:29 AM »

1876, 1888 and 2000.
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yougo1000
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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2010, 06:58:39 AM »

1 2008
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Ameriplan
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« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2010, 09:07:17 AM »


Lol
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cpeeks
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« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2010, 09:38:53 AM »

1824, 1876, 1960,2000, 2004. 2004 There was probably as much voter fraud there than in other election. There are reports that Kerry had as many as 5 million votes taken from him. There were large discrapencies in Ohio. Bush was reported as getting more votes in some counties than there were that people actually voted. There were reports of voting machines in heavily democratic areas actually going in reverse. Thats why I will always refer to him as Governor Bush because thats the only office he legally won lol.
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Derek
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« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2010, 12:23:43 PM »

1824, 1876, 1960,2000, 2004. 2004 There was probably as much voter fraud there than in other election. There are reports that Kerry had as many as 5 million votes taken from him. There were large discrapencies in Ohio. Bush was reported as getting more votes in some counties than there were that people actually voted. There were reports of voting machines in heavily democratic areas actually going in reverse. Thats why I will always refer to him as Governor Bush because thats the only office he legally won lol.

Reports does not mean that what's being said is true. I don't recall hearing any of that anyhow. Where did you hear about Bush getting more votes than there are people in certain counties? If that were the case the media would have a field day with it. He never stole either election and I posted a youtube video of what really happened in the 2000 election thread. What was illegal about the first time? Winning the Electoral Vote?
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justW353
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« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2010, 01:33:33 PM »

1824  (Although Jackson got his revenge)
1876
2000

Also, by this, I don't mean the election was rigged, I mean that the results were unfair and the wrong candidate won under bizarre circumstances.

I don't consider 1888 stolen.  Harrison nearly won many more states.
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Derek
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« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2010, 01:57:42 PM »

1824  (Although Jackson got his revenge)
1876
2000

Also, by this, I don't mean the election was rigged, I mean that the results were unfair and the wrong candidate won under bizarre circumstances.

I don't consider 1888 stolen.  Harrison nearly won many more states.


What about 2000 was stolen?
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RIP Robert H Bork
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« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2010, 03:08:38 PM »

Why is it so hard for the Democrats to just admit that they lost and move on? They must believe that they were somehow "entitled" to win 2000 and 2004, so if they lost, OMG IT'S UNFAIR!! Hell, if everything were fair, the Democrats would probably be winning every election just because only the Democrats can/should win/be in office, and the Republicans can't. Next thing you know, if Obama loses in 2012 they will be complaining about that too. Roll Eyes

I, for one, don't believe that any of the elections were stolen, even those whose results I strongly disapprove of.
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Ameriplan
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« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2010, 10:18:11 PM »

Why is it so hard for the Democrats to just admit that they lost and move on? They must believe that they were somehow "entitled" to win 2000 and 2004, so if they lost, OMG IT'S UNFAIR!! Hell, if everything were fair, the Democrats would probably be winning every election just because only the Democrats can/should win/be in office, and the Republicans can't. Next thing you know, if Obama loses in 2012 they will be complaining about that too. Roll Eyes

I, for one, don't believe that any of the elections were stolen, even those whose results I strongly disapprove of.

This ^ = WIN.
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justW353
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« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2010, 10:41:26 PM »

1824  (Although Jackson got his revenge)
1876
2000

Also, by this, I don't mean the election was rigged, I mean that the results were unfair and the wrong candidate won under bizarre circumstances.

I don't consider 1888 stolen.  Harrison nearly won many more states.


What about 2000 was stolen?

Stolen, once again, not rigged.

Bush won Florida under controversial circumstances, and Gore won the popular vote by 500,000...that's the city of Atlanta.  That's Luxembourg.
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Bo
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« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2010, 10:45:11 PM »

1824  (Although Jackson got his revenge)
1876
2000

Also, by this, I don't mean the election was rigged, I mean that the results were unfair and the wrong candidate won under bizarre circumstances.

I don't consider 1888 stolen.  Harrison nearly won many more states.


What about 2000 was stolen?

Stolen, once again, not rigged.

Bush won Florida under controversial circumstances, and Gore won the popular vote by 500,000...that's the city of Atlanta.  That's Luxembourg.

Winning the PV is irrelevant. The EV really matters. Even though I agree that the SC shouldn't have stopped that FL recount in 2000.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2010, 06:44:37 AM »

Seriously - possibly the closer gilded age elections except 1876, though we'll never know.

1876 and 2000 were certainly not 'stolen'. These were gunpoint muggings.
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cpeeks
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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2010, 09:15:33 AM »

1824, 1876, 1960,2000, 2004. 2004 There was probably as much voter fraud there than in other election. There are reports that Kerry had as many as 5 million votes taken from him. There were large discrapencies in Ohio. Bush was reported as getting more votes in some counties than there were that people actually voted. There were reports of voting machines in heavily democratic areas actually going in reverse. Thats why I will always refer to him as Governor Bush because thats the only office he legally won lol.

Reports does not mean that what's being said is true. I don't recall hearing any of that anyhow. Where did you hear about Bush getting more votes than there are people in certain counties? If that were the case the media would have a field day with it. He never stole either election and I posted a youtube video of what really happened in the 2000 election thread. What was illegal about the first time? Winning the Electoral Vote?

Of course you wouldnt, you have to actually read something for yourself, instead of listening to what fox news tells you.
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CJK
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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2010, 07:27:29 PM »

1876 was stolen--by the Democrats.

If Democrats weren't preventing blacks from voting, Hayes would have won the popular vote.
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