|           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 30, 2020, 09:46:44 pm
News:
If you are having trouble logging in due to invalid user name / pass:

Consider resetting your account password, as you may have forgotten it over time if using a password manager.

  Talk Elections
  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  Election What-ifs?
  Past Election What-ifs (US) (Moderators: Should've left the Pangolins alone, Apocrypha)
  Dean vs. Bush Jr. 2000
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Dean vs. Bush Jr. 2000  (Read 2216 times)
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,987
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: June 25, 2010, 01:38:13 am »

Gore declines to run in 2000. Thus, VT Governor Howard Dean wins the Democratic nomination. Bush Jr. wins the GOP nod as in RL. Dean pledges to continue Clinton's policies and in an effort to appeal to moderates and conservatives, points to his staunch support for gun rights and the fact that VT had balanced budgets several times while he was Governor at the same time that he cut taxes. Bush runs on a traditional small-govt., isolationist platform and pledges to restore honor and dignity to the White House. Everything else stays the same. You pick the VPs. Who would win? Discuss, with maps.
Logged
Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
Libertas
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,902
Finland


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 01:46:00 am »


329-209
Logged
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,616
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 02:15:48 am »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%
Logged
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,987
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 01:12:13 pm »




Dean/Graham-332 EV
Bush Jr./Cheney-206 EV

Dean's reputation as a tax-cutting fiscal conservative and especially his staunch support of gun rights helps him with many moderate/conservative voters. In addition, his charisma helps him energize the Democratic base and brings many undecided voters into his column.
Logged
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,987
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 03:14:15 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?
Logged
Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
Libertas
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,902
Finland


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 03:23:32 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?
Logged
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,616
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2010, 03:27:35 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.
Logged
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,987
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2010, 03:28:56 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

I know you're being sarcastic. However, in response to Derek: Dean supported gun rights and was more charismatic than Gore. Thus, if Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, then Dean surely would have beat Bush that year.
Logged
Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
Libertas
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,902
Finland


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2010, 03:36:05 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?
Logged
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,987
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2010, 03:48:49 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.
Logged
Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
Libertas
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,902
Finland


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2010, 03:49:57 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

What does this have to do with my post you quoted?
Logged
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,987
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2010, 03:51:28 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

What does this have to do with my post you quoted?

I was trying to add to your rebuttal of Derek.
Logged
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,616
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2010, 08:14:13 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

Candidates like Dean are exposed eventually somewhere down the line. He might have done as well as McGovern because that's automatically what comes to any serious voter's mind when they think of Howard Dean. Gun rights would not have overcome abortion in TN, WV, and AR. Name one president who has come from a state worth 3 electoral votes. And Vermont would have gone 58-40 for Gore without Ralph Nader.
Logged
Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
Libertas
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,902
Finland


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2010, 08:20:12 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

Candidates like Dean are exposed eventually somewhere down the line. He might have done as well as McGovern because that's automatically what comes to any serious voter's mind when they think of Howard Dean. Gun rights would not have overcome abortion in TN, WV, and AR. Name one president who has come from a state worth 3 electoral votes. And Vermont would have gone 58-40 for Gore without Ralph Nader.

McGovern doesn't come to my mind when I think of Howard Dean. I would greatly prefer George McGovern to Howard Dean.


And TN, WV, and AR voted for pro-abortion Democrat Bill Clinton.
Logged
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,616
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2010, 08:23:46 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

Candidates like Dean are exposed eventually somewhere down the line. He might have done as well as McGovern because that's automatically what comes to any serious voter's mind when they think of Howard Dean. Gun rights would not have overcome abortion in TN, WV, and AR. Name one president who has come from a state worth 3 electoral votes. And Vermont would have gone 58-40 for Gore without Ralph Nader.

McGovern doesn't come to my mind when I think of Howard Dean. I would greatly prefer George McGovern to Howard Dean.


And TN, WV, and AR voted for pro-abortion Democrat Bill Clinton.

Yes and Clinton was from Arkansas with a running mate from Tennessee. West Virginia until 2000 was like Massachusetts or Rhode Island for the democrats.
Logged
Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
Libertas
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,902
Finland


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2010, 08:25:37 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

Candidates like Dean are exposed eventually somewhere down the line. He might have done as well as McGovern because that's automatically what comes to any serious voter's mind when they think of Howard Dean. Gun rights would not have overcome abortion in TN, WV, and AR. Name one president who has come from a state worth 3 electoral votes. And Vermont would have gone 58-40 for Gore without Ralph Nader.

McGovern doesn't come to my mind when I think of Howard Dean. I would greatly prefer George McGovern to Howard Dean.


And TN, WV, and AR voted for pro-abortion Democrat Bill Clinton.

Yes and Clinton was from Arkansas with a running mate from Tennessee. West Virginia until 2000 was like Massachusetts or Rhode Island for the democrats.

So obviously abortion isn't that big an issue in those states as to prevent them from voting Democratic.
Logged
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,616
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2010, 08:28:16 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

Candidates like Dean are exposed eventually somewhere down the line. He might have done as well as McGovern because that's automatically what comes to any serious voter's mind when they think of Howard Dean. Gun rights would not have overcome abortion in TN, WV, and AR. Name one president who has come from a state worth 3 electoral votes. And Vermont would have gone 58-40 for Gore without Ralph Nader.

McGovern doesn't come to my mind when I think of Howard Dean. I would greatly prefer George McGovern to Howard Dean.


And TN, WV, and AR voted for pro-abortion Democrat Bill Clinton.

Yes and Clinton was from Arkansas with a running mate from Tennessee. West Virginia until 2000 was like Massachusetts or Rhode Island for the democrats.

So obviously abortion isn't that big an issue in those states as to prevent them from voting Democratic.

He won at the state level in Arkansas and portrayed himself as a southern democrat. Also Clinton wasn't hardcore for abortion until after he got into office. The people who were voting in 1992 thought they were voting for the southern democrats of the 50's and 60's. 2000 that was made into a bigger issue because Bush was a better candidate. Plus Dean is no Bill Clinton. We're talking apples and oranges at this point. Remember the south was much more conservative in 2000 than it was in 1992 in terms of Democrat vs. Republican. It's apples and oranges bringing Clinton into the argument. Dean is not a candidate that could shrug off that issue.
Logged
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,987
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2010, 08:32:17 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

Candidates like Dean are exposed eventually somewhere down the line. He might have done as well as McGovern because that's automatically what comes to any serious voter's mind when they think of Howard Dean. Gun rights would not have overcome abortion in TN, WV, and AR. Name one president who has come from a state worth 3 electoral votes. And Vermont would have gone 58-40 for Gore without Ralph Nader.

First of all, not all Nader voters would have voted for Gore. Many voted for Nader in the first place because they thought Gore and Bush were too similar. Many Nader voters would have stayed home and some would have even voted for Bush if Nader was not on the ballot. As Libertas said, pro-abortion Democrats Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won AR, TN, and WV (and several other Southern states). And I didn't have Dean winning those states on my map. What does it matter if Dean's home state has 3 electoral votes or not? I don't think many voters decide whether or not to vote for someone by looking at how many EVs that candidate's home state has. And Calvin Coolidge was born in VT, which has three Electoral votes. Finally, Dean and McGovern have very little in common other than the fact that they are both Democrats.
Logged
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,987
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2010, 08:46:06 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

Candidates like Dean are exposed eventually somewhere down the line. He might have done as well as McGovern because that's automatically what comes to any serious voter's mind when they think of Howard Dean. Gun rights would not have overcome abortion in TN, WV, and AR. Name one president who has come from a state worth 3 electoral votes. And Vermont would have gone 58-40 for Gore without Ralph Nader.

McGovern doesn't come to my mind when I think of Howard Dean. I would greatly prefer George McGovern to Howard Dean.


And TN, WV, and AR voted for pro-abortion Democrat Bill Clinton.

Yes and Clinton was from Arkansas with a running mate from Tennessee. West Virginia until 2000 was like Massachusetts or Rhode Island for the democrats.

So obviously abortion isn't that big an issue in those states as to prevent them from voting Democratic.

He won at the state level in Arkansas and portrayed himself as a southern democrat. Also Clinton wasn't hardcore for abortion until after he got into office. The people who were voting in 1992 thought they were voting for the southern democrats of the 50's and 60's. 2000 that was made into a bigger issue because Bush was a better candidate. Plus Dean is no Bill Clinton. We're talking apples and oranges at this point. Remember the south was much more conservative in 2000 than it was in 1992 in terms of Democrat vs. Republican. It's apples and oranges bringing Clinton into the argument. Dean is not a candidate that could shrug off that issue.

Dean never made a huge deal of abortion as Governor or when he was running in 2004. I don't see him making a big deal out of it if he ran in 2000. And in 1996, those three Southern states (AR, TN, and WV) voted for Clinton again after they already saw his policies on everything (including abortion). In 1996, no one confused Clinton for an old-school Southern Democrat from the 1950s and 1960s. Dean is pretty similar to Clinton, both in terms of ideology and charisma. Thus, I think Dean would have been able to steer the discussion away from divisive issues and more towards bread and butter issues (like jobs and the economy). Also, abortion isn't as divisive of an issue as you think. Even John Kerry, an uncharismatic Massachusetts liberal, managed to win about 35% of the pro-life vote in 2004 despite the fact that his opponent was a staunch social conservative. Thus, if abortion didn't hurt Clinton that much, I don't think it would have hurt Dean that much.
Logged
Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
Libertas
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,902
Finland


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2010, 08:47:17 pm »

http://

An unknown governor from Vermont coming out of left field. Here it is.

Bush 480
Dean  58

Bush 56%
Dean 42%

Clitnon wasn't very known in 1992. I seriously doubt Dean would have been unless unknown than Clinton in 2000 if he had managed to win his party's nomination. What makes you think he would have done that badly?

Dean is a far-left wacko, didn't you get the memo?

Vermont is not a good base to have and he would be portrayed as extreme. People would have seen him that way too.

Why not? Vermont is among the safest, best educated, and cleanest states in the nation, and it had a balanced budget every year under Dean's governorship. I guess instead we should elect Haley Barbour and use Mississippi as a model for the nation?

Vermont wasn't that liberal in 2000. Gore only won 51% of the vote there. And if the uncharismatic John Kerry almost beat Bush in 2004 despite being from Massachusetts (which is even more liberal than Vermont) after the GOP swift-boated him and attacked him as a flip-flopper, then surely the charismatic Howard Dean would have defeated Bush in 2000. Dean was a fiscal conservative, for gun rights, and much more charismatic than Gore. If Gore almost beat Bush in 2000, surely Dean would have beat Bush that same year. I remember you said before that in your opinion, Gore lost a lot of votes due to his support of gun control and his lack of charisma. Well, Dean wouldn't have had those problems.

Candidates like Dean are exposed eventually somewhere down the line. He might have done as well as McGovern because that's automatically what comes to any serious voter's mind when they think of Howard Dean. Gun rights would not have overcome abortion in TN, WV, and AR. Name one president who has come from a state worth 3 electoral votes. And Vermont would have gone 58-40 for Gore without Ralph Nader.

First of all, not all Nader voters would have voted for Gore. Many voted for Nader in the first place because they thought Gore and Bush were too similar. Many Nader voters would have stayed home and some would have even voted for Bush if Nader was not on the ballot. As Libertas said, pro-abortion Democrats Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won AR, TN, and WV (and several other Southern states). And I didn't have Dean winning those states on my map. What does it matter if Dean's home state has 3 electoral votes or not? I don't think many voters decide whether or not to vote for someone by looking at how many EVs that candidate's home state has. And Calvin Coolidge was born in VT, which has three Electoral votes. Finally, Dean and McGovern have very little in common other than the fact that they are both Democrats.

Correct for the most part, though Jimmy Carter wasn't quite "pro-abortion" in the same way that Bill Clinton was.
Logged
reagan84
Rookie
**
Posts: 66
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2010, 10:34:24 pm »

Agree with Derek's map except Dean would have won California. 
As for the Nadar effect, 50% to Gore, 30% to Bush, 20% stay home.  The combination of Buchanan and other 3rd party candidates hurt Bush almost as much as Nadar hurt Gore.
Dean never would have been nominated in 2000.  If Gore declined, it probably would have been Bill Bradley.
Dean would have done a bit better in '04 because the base would turn out strongly but still would not have beaten W.  He'd get killed in the south and heartland and lose the Midwest except for IL.
Logged
feeblepizza
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,911
United States


Political Matrix
E: 4.45, S: -0.26

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2010, 05:08:43 pm »

I like this idea. I think Dean would do worse than Gore, assuming the Republicans are able to cast him in a similar light to what they did in 2004.



Dean/Feingold - 214     (actual - 266
Bush/Cheney -  324    (actual -  271)

Popular vote
Dean - 46.0 %  (actual -  48.4%)
Bush -  50.6 %    (actual -  47.9%)

I think this.
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length
Logout

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines