Budget Process Committee

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What is next?

[Marokai Backbeat]

OK. For the record I just typed a long e-mail with links to several on-line budget sims with suggestions on how to incorporate some aspects into an Atlasian budget process. I'd copied the post (scrolled over the text and hit cntl-c) several times for safety. Took me most of the afternoon to research, review and type. Then as I'm making one last cut and paste of a link  before finishing my final sentence and sending, I accidentally hit the backspace button twice.

With my cursor only set to paste the last website link I'd just copied.

I've been wanting to get this god damned think posted for literally weeks. WEEKS!!

I'm so f-ing pissed right now I could spit.

I'm going for a walk.

I know how that feels, Badger. That sucks.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What is next?

I was about to ask for suggestions for how the process should work... but... um...

[Badger]

What is next?

I was about to ask for suggestions for how the process should work... but... um...

<laugh> It's ok, Al. I've recovered (mostly ). I hope to repost something later today.

[Badger]

Take Two:

The first step is to create a rough breakdown as to the amount--both in dollar terms and in terms of share of total revenue---of taxes collected by the government from its various sources (income taxes, corporate taxes, etc.). We don't need to get overly detailed here. Consider these simple pie charts:
http://federalbudgetchallenge.org/budget_challenge/sim/budget_master.html

As part of this process we need to decide approximately what tax rates are in Atlasia. Again, we don't need uber detailed info re: the depreciation schedule for 5 year business purchases and the like. Just simple basic parameters like whether the maximum personal income tax rate is 38% or 90% or whatever.

The same holds true with spending. Again, we don't need to get into such minute details like the amount appropriated for Coast Guard rescue operations in FY 2010, but rather just determine what the government spends in the major categories of the budget (Military spending, education, agriculture, medicare, etc.). For an example see the "NathanNewman" budget sim below (short version).

Deciding the basic current tax and spending levels for Atlasia shouldn't be difficult so long as we follow one rule I'll propose now: We should adopt real world U.S. tax and spending levels as Atlasia's, except where legislation passed in Atlasia materially changes the real world numbers. I emphasize "materially", so the Committee could likely decide most bills passed aren't so huge an impact that they don't change the budget's base line numbers.

In a nutshell, I propose we adopt a recent (FY 2010, 2009, 08, whatever) US budget as our template for Atlasia, then review prior Atlasian legislation to determine if there are any current spending/tax laws in effect that are so sweepingly different from RL it requires some material change from the template's numbers (and how).

That'll give a baseline budget to start from. From there its up to the Senate and Executive to change it however it chooses. The GM will have the important role of determining any changes in revenue/spending levels in the next budget based on decisions the government made. Again, the GM need not spend time determining if the Safe Scallops & Clean Clams Act (just an example, Dallasfan, no offense; it's a good bill I happily voted for) raised Agriculture spending from $1.2 billion to $1.3 billion, but if the Senate slashes tax rates in half then obviously that needs to be reflected in the next budget's estimated revenue. The GM can also use his god-like powers to mess with us by arbitrarily determining (as is his right in the job ) that revenue is going to fall well short of projections, hit us up with a costly natural disaster or terrorist attack, or some other random incident to deal with.

If the RL budget is chosen from any recent year, I'm sure there will be plenty of area for debate over such fundamental issues as taxes, government spending, and levels of public debt. And isn't increased debate combined with continuity what this is all about?

I've provided links to various on-line budget sims from the past few years. Some have problems with limiting the amount of changes allowed (e.g. no tax increases or military budget cuts), some don't offer any context of the likely effects of such budget cuts, others may be a bit too complex for Atlasia's purposes. Still, I think there's some aspects we can apply to an Atlasia budget process. Budget Hero is my favorite, and not just for the cool graphics.

http://www.nathannewman.org/nbs/

http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/index.php?lesson=EM306

http://budgethero.publicradio.org/widget/widget.php?refid=apm

http://federalbudgetchallenge.org/budget_challenge/sim/budget_master.html

http://uspolitics.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&zTi=1&sdn=uspolitics&cdn=newsissues&tm=15&gps=150_3068_1003_592&f=11&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.kowaldesign.com/budget/
(I don't have Java on my work computer, so I have no idea how worthwhile this is).

Thoughts?

EDIT: BTW, I started a thread on the Economics board inviting Forum members to take their best shot at crafting an ideal budget and share the results. I invite all Atlasians to participate and comment on the process. It certainly would help in figuring out what aspects are more fun than others and what level of simplicity vs. detail works best for maximum game enjoyment. 
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=122358.0

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The nathannewman sim is fun.



Which year is best for the baseline? It should be as bad as the 2009 and 2010 budget since Atlasia had a milder recession then the RL US.

[Badger]

The nathannewman sim is fun.



Which year is best for the baseline? It should be as bad as the 2009 and 2010 budget since Atlas had a milder recession then the RL US.

Yeah. I like that one too. I still like Budget Hero the best because it goes into the most detail about the effects (budgetary and otherwise) of your decisions and feels more "real". But the NN one is cool in that it offers total flexability in spending. One can double the Pentagon's budget, or eliminate it entirely! I suspect its sliding scale of funding in major categories, with informed GM analysis, is closer to what might work in Atlasia. Did you try the long version too?

Did you mean the Atlas budget should not be as bad as the RL 2009-2010 budget due to the milder recession?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The nathannewman sim is fun.



Which year is best for the baseline? It should be as bad as the 2009 and 2010 budget since Atlas had a milder recession then the RL US.

Yeah. I like that one too. I still like Budget Hero the best because it goes into the most detail about the effects (budgetary and otherwise) of your decisions and feels more "real". But the NN one is cool in that it offers total flexability in spending. One can double the Pentagon's budget, or eliminate it entirely! I suspect its sliding scale of funding in major categories, with informed GM analysis, is closer to what might work in Atlasia. Did you try the long version too?

Did you mean the Atlas budget should not be as bad as the RL 2009-2010 budget due to the milder recession?

Yea, I left out a word above.


I could only try the Nathannewman one. The second one jammed when I tried to load it so I didn't try the others. I will try the one you just mentioned though.

[Badger]

The nathannewman sim is fun.



Which year is best for the baseline? It should be as bad as the 2009 and 2010 budget since Atlas had a milder recession then the RL US.

Yeah. I like that one too. I still like Budget Hero the best because it goes into the most detail about the effects (budgetary and otherwise) of your decisions and feels more "real". But the NN one is cool in that it offers total flexability in spending. One can double the Pentagon's budget, or eliminate it entirely! I suspect its sliding scale of funding in major categories, with informed GM analysis, is closer to what might work in Atlasia. Did you try the long version too?

Did you mean the Atlas budget should not be as bad as the RL 2009-2010 budget due to the milder recession?

Yea, I left out a word above.


I could only try the Nathannewman one. The second one jammed when I tried to load it so I didn't try the others. I will try the one you just mentioned though.

That's odd. They all loaded fine just now when I hit the links in my post. Anyone else having trouble?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The nathannewman sim is fun.



Which year is best for the baseline? It should be as bad as the 2009 and 2010 budget since Atlas had a milder recession then the RL US.

Yeah. I like that one too. I still like Budget Hero the best because it goes into the most detail about the effects (budgetary and otherwise) of your decisions and feels more "real". But the NN one is cool in that it offers total flexability in spending. One can double the Pentagon's budget, or eliminate it entirely! I suspect its sliding scale of funding in major categories, with informed GM analysis, is closer to what might work in Atlasia. Did you try the long version too?

Did you mean the Atlas budget should not be as bad as the RL 2009-2010 budget due to the milder recession?

Yea, I left out a word above.


I could only try the Nathannewman one. The second one jammed when I tried to load it so I didn't try the others. I will try the one you just mentioned though.

That's odd. They all loaded fine just now when I hit the links in my post. Anyone else having trouble?

Oh I am 100% sure its my computer, namely my connection that was doing it. They load fine today.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Did you mean the Atlas budget should not be as bad as the RL 2009-2010 budget due to the milder recession?

On the one hand, yes, obviously. On the other hand, Atlasia's economy would have been in a worse shape than the U.S's for most of our existence; political instability and a tendency to ignore economic policy will do that. Ideas?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Did you mean the Atlas budget should not be as bad as the RL 2009-2010 budget due to the milder recession?

On the one hand, yes, obviously. On the other hand, Atlasia's economy would have been in a worse shape than the U.S's for most of our existence; political instability and a tendency to ignore economic policy will do that. Ideas?

Hmm, that runs contrary to what PS and I agreed was the likely state of the economy in Atlasia.

Of course, you are the GM. You could solve this problem immediately just by posting a "comprehensive overview of the economy". Take into account whatever you want and just state where everything is, right now, from simple things like the Unemployement and GDP like PS used to do, to the savings rate, disposable income, income distribution (with your own Gini Index number). Basically fill in everything the CIA world Factbook lists only you will be making up the numbers. You have the length of knowledge of Atlasia, combined with other things that someone like you could best do this, not that you can't bring others in if you wanted to, of course.

Yes, that would do very well. Maybe we should create something like that, post it in a central location, update it every three months or four months or so. It would atleast allow candidates to talk in their campaigns about where the economy is. It may seem impossible or worthless, but I think at least it should be considered maybe not as part of this body since we are to deal with the budget here but in some other location.

This is an elections sim and yes there is the arguement whether it should be that or a gov't sim or booth. It should be booth. You feed the elections sim and that will drive the gov't portion.


I got budget hero to work finally and it was fun, though as was pointed out these things do not take into account GDP growth.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The issue is that I've been here from the beginning, you see. We have technically had several armed uprisings. Which we can ignore, of course. I'd be happy to do so, but this is a debate we need to have...

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The issue is that I've been here from the beginning, you see. We have technically had several armed uprisings. Which we can ignore, of course. I'd be happy to do so, but this is a debate we need to have...

Okay then lets have it.

Which ones do you think should be ignored and why? Which ones do you think should not be ignored and why? Provide some links here or there and I can review the actions and provide my input. Hopefully some of the newer people would do the same and older people would take some of the load off you. (Fritz, bgwah, AWOL Jedi, etc etc).

Again maybe we start a thread in the Elections board because this broader then scope of this committee, though if you are okay with having in here, I am certainly not going to complain.

[Purple State]

I think it's totally fine to have a more comprehensive and reason-based review of the Atlasian economy than I ever did. My numbers were always based on a sort of "Let's restart it all right now" mindset. But a legitimate review that takes into account past events is fine and probably beneficial, so long as future GMs do not make it a habit of redoing the numbers every time. Which is where a budget would be extraordinarily helpful.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You know I find it fascinating, that even though my hard drive is heading for a dumpster, I am here and no one else is.

[Badger]

You know I find it fascinating, that even though my hard drive is heading for a dumpster, I am here and no one else is.

Getting to it soon, I promise. A weeks-long project I'd been working on finally was accomplished a few days ago and should free up some time.

I should note the "project" was something other than the new baby.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You know I find it fascinating, that even though my hard drive is heading for a dumpster, I am here and no one else is.

Getting to it soon, I promise. A weeks-long project I'd been working on finally was accomplished a few days ago and should free up some time.

I should note the "project" was something other than the new baby.

No problem.  I just am a sucker for irony.


I have been thinking about two options we should consider dealing with origination. Both have problems

1. Have the SoIA draw up a preliminary guideline of the budget with the consultation of the Game Moderator. Could lead to the senate just passing whatever the SoIA writes blindly. With this Senate and the previous ones, that is very likely to occur.

2. Have a permenent committee of two or three Senators draw up the budget in full then send it to the full Senate for debate, amending, and final passage. This risks that the full senate become a rubber stamp in times of innactivity.

It would be nice if we could have the process start by having the Administration (the SoIA to be specific) draw up its "desired budget" while still maintaining an independent process in the Senate.



I am very discouraged that what Al and I discussed has not come to pass, yet in any even preliminary form.I am very much interested but I can't dig through the wiki blindly without knowing where and what to look for (Dial-up can cause pages to load very slowly. Especially when visiting for the first time. And since this is a new Hard drive, in terms of speed, it is as if I never have been on the wiki.)

[Badger]

Spending ($2673.05 billion)

Military Spending ($446.11 billion)
$106.57 billion .... Military personnel (No Change)
$153.62 billion .... Operation and maintenance (No Change)
$80.84 billion ..... Procurement (No Change)
$68.13 billion ..... Research, development, test and evaluation (No Change)
$16.15 billion ..... Military Construction, Family Housing and Other (No Change)
$17.99 billion ..... Atomic Energy Defense Activities (No Change)
$2.81 billion ...... Defense Related activities (No Change)

Iraq and Afghanistan Operations ($111.85 billion)
$105 billion ....... Military Operations (No Change)
$6.85 billion ...... Reconstruction aid (No Change)

Military Retirement ($115.48 billion)
$40.83 billion ..... Military retirement (No Change)
$36.34 billion ..... Income security for veterans (No Change)
$3.24 billion ...... Veterans education, training, and rehabilitation (No Change)
$34.35 billion ..... Hospital and medical care for veterans and retired military (No Change)
$0.72 billion ...... Housing and other veterans benefits and services (No Change)

International affairs ($31.59 billion)
$13 billion ........ International development and humanitarian assistance (No Change)
$9.47 billion ...... International military aid (No Change)
$7.97 billion ...... Conduct of foreign affairs (No Change)
$1.15 billion ...... Foreign information and exchange activities (No Change)

General science, space, and technology ($23.97 billion)
$5.62 billion ...... National Science Foundation programs (No Change)
$3.44 billion ...... Department of Energy general science programs (No Change)
$14.91 billion ..... Space flight, research, and supporting activities (No Change)

Non-Defense Energy Spending ($2.12 billion)
$0.73 billion ...... Energy supply (No Change)
$1.03 billion ...... Energy conservation and preparedness (No Change)
$0.36 billion ...... Energy information, preparedness, & regulation (No Change)

Natural resources and environment ($31.16 billion)
$5.45 billion ...... Water resources (No Change)
$9.07 billion ...... Conservation and land management (No Change)
$3.12 billion ...... Recreational & Park resources (No Change)
$8.42 billion ...... Pollution control and abatement (No Change)
$5.1 billion ....... Other natural resources (No Change)

Agriculture ($26.02 billion)
$21.73 billion ..... Farm income stabilization & crop insurance (No Change)
$4.29 billion ...... Agricultural research and services (No Change)

Commerce and Housing Loan Programs ($6.82 billion)
$-4.28 billion ..... Federal Housing Loan Programs (No Change)
$2.17 billion ...... Postal service (No Change)
$-0.96 billion ..... Deposit insurance (No Change)
$7.96 billion ...... Universal service fund (No Change)
$1.93 billion ...... Other advancement of commerce (No Change)

Transportation ($70.68 billion)
$36.51 billion ..... Highways and highway safety (No Change)
$8.51 billion ...... Mass transit (No Change)
$0.61 billion ...... Railroads (No Change)
$17.26 billion ..... Air Transportion (No Change)
$7.37 billion ...... Water transportation (No Change)
$0.42 billion ...... Other transportation (No Change)

Community and regional development ($19.1 billion)
$6.25 billion ...... Community development (No Change)
$2.86 billion ...... Area and regional development (No Change)
$9.99 billion ...... Disaster relief and insurance (No Change)

Education ($64.07 billion)
$38.57 billion ..... Elementary, Secondary & Vocational education (No Change)
$22.27 billion ..... Higher education (No Change)
$3.23 billion ...... Research and general education (No Change)

Training, labor and unemployment ($47.81 billion)
$6.88 billion ...... Training and employment (No Change)
$1.6 billion ....... Labor law, statistics, and other administration (No Change)
$39.33 billion ..... Unemployment compensation (No Change)

Non-Medicare Health Spending ($253.32 billion)
$192.72 billion .... Medicaid grants (No Change)
$6.23 billion ...... State Children's Health Insurance (No Change)
$3.17 billion ...... Indian health (No Change)
$3.24 billion ...... Substance abuse and mental health services (No Change)
$4.7 billion ....... Disease control, public health and bioterrorism (No Change)
$29.36 billion ..... Health research and training (No Change)
$3.01 billion ...... Food safety and occupational health and safety (No Change)
$10.89 billion ..... Other health care services (No Change)

Medicare ($345.76 billion)
$182.76 billion .... Hospital insurance (HI) (No Change)
$115.14 billion .... Supplementary medical insurance (SMI) (No Change)
$46.7 billion ...... Prescription drug benefit (No Change)
$1.16 billion ...... Health care fraud (No Change)

Civilian Retirement (Social Security excluded) ($72.02 billion)
$4.89 billion ...... Civilian retirement and disability insurance (No Change)
$58.22 billion ..... Federal employee retirement and disability (No Change)
$8.91 billion ...... Federal employees' and retired employees' health benefits (No Change)

Aid to Low-Income Families ($206.78 billion)
$38.45 billion ..... Housing assistance (No Change)
$37.58 billion ..... Food stamps (No Change)
$19.3 billion ...... Other nutrition programs (WIC, school lunches) (No Change)
$38.66 billion ..... Supplemental security income (SSI) (No Change)
$18.21 billion ..... Family support payments (TANF) (No Change)
$34.05 billion ..... Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) (No Change)
$13.15 billion ..... Child tax credit (No Change)
$4.8 billion ....... Child care funds (No Change)
$2.58 billion ...... Other aid to low-income families (No Change)

General Family Support ($25.62 billion)
$6.56 billion ...... Foster care and adoption assistance (No Change)
$2.92 billion ...... Child support and family support programs (No Change)
$16.14 billion ..... Social and family services (No Change)

Social security ($544.82 billion)
$454.4 billion ..... Old-age and survivors insurance(OASI) (No Change)
$90.42 billion ..... Disability insurance (DI) (No Change)

Administration of justice ($43.1 billion)
$11.35 billion ..... Federal law enforcement (No Change)
$10.46 billion ..... Border security and immigration (No Change)
$10.91 billion ..... Federal litigation and judicial activities (No Change)
$6.16 billion ...... Federal prison system (No Change)
$4.22 billion ...... Criminal justice assistance (No Change)

General government administration ($17.76 billion)
$3.67 billion ...... Legislative functions (No Change)
$1.14 billion ...... Executive office programs (No Change)
$9.8 billion ....... IRS & other fiscal operations (No Change)
$3.15 billion ...... Other general government (No Change)

Net_interest_long ($211.08 billion)
$211.08 billion .... Net Interest (No Change)

Undistributed offsetting receipts and allowance ($-43.99 billion)
$-43.99 billion .... Undistributed offsetting receipts and allowance (No Change)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tax Expenditures and Tax Cuts ($1075.13 billion)


2001 and 2003 Tax Cuts ($294.9 billion)
$116.96 billion .... Benefits for Richest 1% of Taxpayers (No Change)
$28.87 billion ..... Benefits for Next Richest 4% (No Change)
$58.92 billion ..... Benefits for Next Richest 15% (No Change)
$43.6 billion ...... Benefits for Next 20% of Taxpayers (No Change)
$46.55 billion ..... Benefits for Bottom 60% of Taxpayers (No Change)

Corporate Tax Breaks ($60.36 billion)
$15.74 billion ..... Untaxed Foreign Profits (No Change)
$9.87 billion ...... R&D Tax Breaks (No Change)
$4.05 billion ...... Energy, Mining and Timber Tax Breaks (No Change)
$9.93 billion ...... Tax Free Bonds (No Change)
$20.77 billion ..... Other Corporate Tax Breaks (No Change)
Personal Business & Investment Benefits ($86.71 billion)
$30.38 billion ..... Lower tax rates on capital gains (excluding housing) (No Change)
$28.76 billion ..... Step-up basis of capital gains at death (No Change)
$23.01 billion ..... Tax-Free Bonds (No Change)
$1.36 billion ...... Enterprise & Empowerment Zones and New Markets credit (No Change)
$3.2 billion ....... Other personal investment tax breaks (No Change)

Pension & Retirement Deductions ($168.47 billion)
$51.05 billion ..... Employer-paid Pensions (No Change)
$58.12 billion ..... 401Ks & Keogh plans (No Change)
$7.31 billion ...... IRAs (No Change)
$29.48 billion ..... Group and personal life insurance benefits (No Change)
$19.77 billion ..... Untaxed Social Security benefits (No Change)
$2.74 billion ...... Other retirement benefits (No Change)

Health Insurance Tax Benefits ($140.99 billion)
$125.69 billion .... Employer-paid Health Insurance (No Change)
$4.33 billion ...... Self-employed medical insurance premiums (No Change)
$1.83 billion ...... Medical Savings/Health Savings Accounts (No Change)
$9.14 billion ...... Deductibility of medical expenses (No Change)

Housing tax benefits ($163.71 billion)
$76.03 billion ..... Mortgage Interest (No Change)
$14.83 billion ..... Deductibility of property taxes on homes (No Change)
$36.27 billion ..... Capital gains exclusion on home sales (No Change)
$29.72 billion ..... Exclusion of net imputed rental income on owner-occupied homes (No Change)
$2.11 billion ...... Housing bonds & low-income housing investments (No Change)
$4.75 billion ...... Exception from passive loss rules for $25,000 of rental loss (No Change)

Other individual deductions and exemptions ($159.99 billion)
$37.89 billion ..... Charitable contributions (No Change)
$34.62 billion ..... State and local taxes (w/o home property) (No Change)
$6.55 billion ...... Soldiers and veterans tax benefits (No Change)
$5.94 billion ...... Workmen's compensation (No Change)
$14.01 billion ..... Education deductions and credits (No Change)
$32.81 billion ..... Child credit (No Change)
$2.81 billion ...... Child care credits and deductions (No Change)
$2 billion ......... Deduction for the blind and elderly (No Change)
$7.86 billion ...... Social Security benefits for disabled and survivors (No Change)
$3.76 billion ...... Untaxed foreign personal income (No Change)
$3.28 billion ...... Employee parking and transit expenses (No Change)
$1.25 billion ...... Adoption and foster care tax credits (No Change)
$5.42 billion ...... Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC)- revenue loss component (No Change)
$1.79 billion ...... Other fringe benefits (No Change)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

New budget is $3748.18 billion
($2673.05 billion in spending, $1075.13 billion in tax expenditures and cuts).

Deficit is $401.04 billion.

[Badger]

Tax Rates


Marginal Tax Rate
           Single /           Married Filing Jointly/ Married Filing Separately/  Head of Household
10%: $0 – $8,375         / $0 – $16,750          /$0 – $8,375          / $0 – $11,950
15%: $8,376–$34,000/ $16,751–$68,000/ $8,376 – $34,000/ $11,951 – $45,550
25%: $34,001–$82,400/ $68,001 – $137,300/ $34,001 – $68,650/ $45,551 – $117,650
28%: $82,401–$171,850/ $137,301 – $209,250/ $68,651 – $104,625/ $117,651 – $190,550
33%: $171,851–$373,650/ $209,251 –$373,650/ $104,626–$186,825/ $190,551 - $373,650
35%: $373,651+/ $373,651+/ $186,826+/ $373,651+/

Corporate Tax Rates:

Taxable Income ($) Tax Rate[22]
0 to 50,000 15%
50,000 to 75,000 25%
75,000 to 100,000 34%
100,000 to 335,000 39%
335,000 to 10,000,000 34%
10,000,000 to 15,000,000 35%
15,000,000 to 18,333,333 38%
18,333,333 and up 35%

This rate structure produces a flat 34% tax rate on incomes from $335,000 to $10,000,000, gradually increasing to a flat rate of 35% on incomes above $18,333,333.

Estate Tax: 45% on estates above $2 mil

Excise Taxes:

Gas: 18.4 cents/gallon (24.4 cents/gallon for diesel).

Cigarettes: $1 per pack.

All other taxes rates are at current FY 2010 levels.

Notes to follow.

[Badger]

Yes, I've taken all the appropriate date for this baseline budget from the NathanNewman sim above for 2006. The income tax levels I took from 2010. The brackets are unchanged from 2006, but the amounts adjusted to inflation. The other taxes may've been tweaked slightly for convenience sake (e.g. gas tax rate is from 2005 since that's what I found on-line; the estate tax rate is from 2007 as 45% is a rounder number than 2006's 46%).

As a preliminary matter I'll say I'm perfectly fine with getting rid of the "Married filing separately" and "Head of Household" filings and keep just single and married for simplicity's sake. It was just easier to cut and paste the entire graph without those changes.

I will emphasize this: This is NOT meant to be a proposal for what the budget should be. Instead, this is supposed to simply be a working starting point for "year zero" in budget terms. It's up to the Senate and President to make desired policy changes to their heart's content. (I have a dozen plus major ideas without trying). This is essentially the "gameboard" we're creating here; Atlasians get to decide how they play.

The biggest question I have is whether there are MAJOR differences in Atlasian history that madate serious changes to these numbers? The first question I had was whether Atlasia invaded Iraq and Afghanistan or not. This would also follow Yank's statement that the Great Recession hit us much less than in real life.

With deference to our prior history--the budget is designed to foster continuity---I suggest that if there's a question as to whether or not a prior enactment effects these numbers, we follow the general presumption to follow these numbers.

Again, this all just a starting point that has some basis in reality. The governments can modify this to their hearts content.

Oh yeah, procedure. I suggest a budget be passed at the beginning of each presidential term, to take effect the following term (the dame way the government budget it's Fiscal Year a year in advance). These can be labeled "Fiscal Terms" instead of fiscal years. (e.g. "1st FT 2010", "2nd FT 2010", etc.). The GM can present the estimated revenue at the beginning of each FT, and happily screw us over with unforeseen events, unexpected economic drops, or just plain old screw ups bey budgetary forecasters.

Thoughts? I'd love to have a system in place for the next presidential term.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

hmm need to think on it. I think you should incorporate some more Historical facts about Atlasia. For instance there was involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan but that was finished by 2005 I think. A veterans would do nicely here!!!


As for taxes, have you used the rates established last year in the "Fiscal Responsibility Act"?

I also think expenditures are rathey low and the deficit would be larger, in the relm of $700 to $1.1 Trilion dollars. I said less meaning somewahere like 20 to 30 percent less not 70%.

[Badger]

hmm need to think on it. I think you should incorporate some more Historical facts about Atlasia. For instance there was involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan but that was finished by 2005 I think. A veterans would do nicely here!!!


As for taxes, have you used the rates established last year in the "Fiscal Responsibility Act"?

I also think expenditures are rathey low and the deficit would be larger, in the relm of $700 to $1.1 Trilion dollars. I said less meaning somewahere like 20 to 30 percent less not 70%.

Exactly my question, Yank. Still being relatively new to Atlasia (and Atlasia organizing its legislative history more akin to oral tradition than codification) I'm quite unsure as to what historically Atlasia has done that (again noting emphasis) needs to change these numbers. Please feel free to suggest what adjustments you feel are needed to adhere to Atlasian history, because I sure can't.

Incidentally, why would the deficit be that much higher if Atlasia avoided the worst of the recession and (presumably) didn't pass as extensive a stimulus program (if any)? I'm open to suggestions here. Although I want to keep numbers as close as possible to a real world scenario to start, I kinda like the idea of a really high deficit to give those sad sack b#$tards in the Senate a real challenge.

Oh, wait....

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

hmm need to think on it. I think you should incorporate some more Historical facts about Atlasia. For instance there was involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan but that was finished by 2005 I think. A veterans would do nicely here!!!


As for taxes, have you used the rates established last year in the "Fiscal Responsibility Act"?

I also think expenditures are rathey low and the deficit would be larger, in the relm of $700 to $1.1 Trilion dollars. I said less meaning somewahere like 20 to 30 percent less not 70%.

Exactly my question, Yank. Still being relatively new to Atlasia (and Atlasia organizing its legislative history more akin to oral tradition than codification) I'm quite unsure as to what historically Atlasia has done that (again noting emphasis) needs to change these numbers. Please feel free to suggest what adjustments you feel are needed to adhere to Atlasian history, because I sure can't.

Incidentally, why would the deficit be that much higher if Atlasia avoided the worst of the recession and (presumably) didn't pass as extensive a stimulus program (if any)? I'm open to suggestions here. Although I want to keep numbers as close as possible to a real world scenario to start, I kinda like the idea of a really high deficit to give those sad sack b#$tards in the Senate a real challenge.

Oh, wait....

Since when is a $1.4 Trillion dollar stimulus not "extensive". I am sorry, when did you get active here again?

And PS put our deficits at US levels (- less severe recession plus stronger stimulus yielded smaller deficits then the addition of a new Health Care law also passed in July put as in the 1.5 Trillion range for 2009). So I would say the range of $750 Billion to $1.1 Trillion.


This is recent history, when you talk about old stuff I thought you meant pre 2007-2008.

Relativity is powerfull. This has a been a fun excersize hasn't it?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Of course the 12% Unemployment rate would mean double dip potentially, so I think it would be a great help if Al could give us the rate using the old method as a standard for comparison, just this once. Then we can compare it to PS's last rate and see just how much things declined and thus if my range should raised slightly.