I don't care about Israel

[Antonio the Sixth]

I care about establishing a stable and fair peace everywhere in the world. That's why I care about Israel, just as I care about Darfur, about Kurdistan, about Kashmir, about Rwanda. Those who don't care are either selfish or coward.

[Joe Republic]

I care about establishing a stable and fair peace everywhere in the world. That's why I care about Israel, just as I care about Darfur, about Kurdistan, about Kashmir, about Rwanda. Those who don't care are either selfish or coward.

I also care about establishing a stable and fair peace everywhere in the world, and I strongly resent your rather offensive implication that I'm either selfish or a coward.

The difference with Israel/Palestine is that you have two groups of people who are fighting for a tiny strip of desert.  They've made it a problem for themselves by continuing to adhere to their ludicrous religions and the attached historical symbols and landmarks, all of which have instilled equal and conflicting notions that they each have some kind of divine right to possess the aforementioned tiny strip of desert.

Just like Kashmir and Northern Ireland, for two more examples, I might be able to show some interest in the effort to resolve the differences if they stop acting so ridiculously and abandon those silly religious traditions first.  That alone wouldn't solve the problem, of course, but it'd be a damn good start.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I care about establishing a stable and fair peace everywhere in the world. That's why I care about Israel, just as I care about Darfur, about Kurdistan, about Kashmir, about Rwanda. Those who don't care are either selfish or coward.

I also care about establishing a stable and fair peace everywhere in the world, and I strongly resent your disgusting implication that I'm either selfish or a coward.

The difference with Israel/Palestine is that you have two groups of people who are fighting for a tiny strip of desert.  They've made it a problem for themselves by continuing to adhere to their ludicrous religions, which have instilled equal and conflicting notions that they each have some kind of divine right to possess the aforementioned tiny strip of desert.

Just like Kashmir and Northern Ireland, for two more examples, I might be able to show some interest in the effort to resolve the differences if they stop acting so ridiculously and abandon those silly religious traditions first.  That alone wouldn't solve the problem, of course, but it'd be a damn good start.

Religious integrism or other forms of extremiusm are a direct consequence of war and poverty. The Hamas vote in the Gaza strip could have been avoided if a stable and sovereign Palestininan State had been established, just like the fascist vote in Israel could have been avoided if terrorists had stopped attacking them. You can't just say "they must abandon their silly religious conviction" : we ought to create condition that will led them to abandon them.

And don't take me wrong, I didn't refer to anyone in particular and obviously I don't think you're selfish or coward. It was more of a general ranting against blind isolationism.

[Joe Republic]

And it's exactly because they will never abandon their religious traditions - which have always been one of the major root causes of their problems - that I don't see any point in even caring about it.  Why should I?  Their conflict is founded on pointless "Us vs. Them" mentalities, and I just can't sympathize with that.

[Antonio the Sixth]

And it's exactly because they will never abandon their religious traditions - which have always been one of the major root causes of their problems - that I don't see any point in even caring about it.  Why should I?  Their conflict is founded on pointless "Us vs. Them" mentalities, and I just can't sympathize with that.

US must precisely force them to accept each other and to come to an agreement. It'd be quite simple to do, at least in theory : just cut every aid to Israel until they accept to stop colonization and start constructive negociations (it probably won't take too much time). At the same time, try to isolate the Hamas by favoring abbas and the moderates. When a Palestinian state will be established and that things will go better, Hamas support in the Gaza strip will diminish and a coordinated action of the palestinian authority and Israel could retake Gaza. As a result of an active fighting against terrorists, security in Israel will improve and fringe far-right movement will lose ground. vicious circles can always be turned into virtuous circles, but certainly not by doing nothing.

[Free Palestine]

I care about establishing a stable and fair peace everywhere in the world. That's why I care about Israel, just as I care about Darfur, about Kurdistan, about Kashmir, about Rwanda. Those who don't care are either selfish or coward.

Some people have other things to worry about, besides establishing peace everywhere in the world.  And some of those people actually want the money they pay to the government to go back to them in some way.  To call that selfish is to say it's selfish for me to not give my entire paycheck (if I had one) to charity every week.  The United States is deeply in debt, yet we're spending billions on foreign countries that have nothing to do with the wellbeing of the American people.

What's "selfish" is to spend everyone else's money on such things, as those who lobby for American internationalism seek to do.  Those who do care about Darfur or Kurdistan or whatever should form some kind of NGO to solve the problem, an International Brigade or something.  I'm sure they could raise billions through voluntary contributions.  You know, international charities get a lot more voluntary donations in the United States, than what the U.S. government sends out in foreign aid every year.

[Antonio the Sixth]

NGOs aren't able to solve any problem. At best they manage to prevent them from having too disastrous consequences, but the jus lack the power to impose peace anywhere. Being the most powerful country in the Earth gives you some responsibility (not to say US should do everything alone, I also think European countries aren't involving in those problems as much as they should).

[Хahar 🤔]

France certainly gets involved way too much in the poorer parts of our world.

[Antonio the Sixth]

France certainly gets involved way too much in the poorer parts of our world.

Don't confuse everything. The problem is not how much it gets involved, but for which reason and in which way.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

France certainly gets involved way too much in the poorer parts of our world.

Don't confuse everything. The problem is not how much it gets involved, but for which reason and in which way.

That's what he meant, that's what he meant...

[Free Palestine]

NGOs aren't able to solve any problem. At best they manage to prevent them from having too disastrous consequences, but the jus lack the power to impose peace anywhere. Being the most powerful country in the Earth gives you some responsibility (not to say US should do everything alone, I also think European countries aren't involving in those problems as much as they should).

The only responsibility the U.S. government has is to the American people.

[Derek]

I wish Israel would take over the middle east to be honest. It would be alot safer for America.

[Free Palestine]

I wish Israel would take over the middle east to be honest. It would be alot safer for America.

It would be a lot safer for America if we didn't support them at all.

[King]

I wish Israel would take over the middle east to be honest. It would be alot safer for America.

You know who really kept the Asia in check?  The Soviets.

Didn't make us feel very safe, though.

[k-onmmunist]

I care about Palestine less.

[Antonio the Sixth]

NGOs aren't able to solve any problem. At best they manage to prevent them from having too disastrous consequences, but the jus lack the power to impose peace anywhere. Being the most powerful country in the Earth gives you some responsibility (not to say US should do everything alone, I also think European countries aren't involving in those problems as much as they should).

The only responsibility the U.S. government has is to the American people.

Sorry, but no, unless they decide to dismantle their entire army,end all their diplomatic relations with other countries and renounce to exerce any kind of influence. Well, maybe it's what you'd wish, but I guess it will remain a dream.

Power always means responsibility.

[Joe Republic]

Sorry, but no, unless they decide to dismantle their entire army,end all their diplomatic relations with other countries and renounce to exerce any kind of influence. Well, maybe it's what you'd wish, but I guess it will remain a dream.

Power always means responsibility.

And wishing for world peace, or at least peace in the Middle East, isn't also a dream?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sorry, but no, unless they decide to dismantle their entire army,end all their diplomatic relations with other countries and renounce to exerce any kind of influence. Well, maybe it's what you'd wish, but I guess it will remain a dream.

Power always means responsibility.

And wishing for world peace, or at least peace in the Middle East, isn't also a dream?

No, there are things that we could do to favor peace in the world. The idea that things are what they are and that we can't do anything t improve it is just an easy way to do nothing.

[Joe Republic]

Okay so tell me, what have you personally done to improve the situation in the Middle East?  And what impact did it have?

[dead0man]

Okay so tell me, what have you personally done to improve the situation in the Middle East?  And what impact did it have?

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean "we" as in him and you.

[Joe Republic]

The word "we" includes me, does it not?  He's arguing that "we" should somehow improve things in that tiny strip of desert thousands of miles away.  If "we" are to do so, then I'd like to know how I am also supposed to do so.  I'll leave aside the much bigger question of "why" for the moment.

So, I'd like some examples of the contribution that Antonio has made, and the impact it has had.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Are you kidding or did you really misunderstand ? By "we" I obviously meant the western countries.

[Gustaf]

I feel that no one got my point...I was not, for example, arguing that the Holocaust is a good reason to support Israel. You're entitled to feel that it is not. But it is actually a reason why people do, and a rather powerful reason too. Acting as if it doesn't exist or is impossible to understand doesn't really strike me as sincere.
 
The long history of connection between Israel and the US explains perfectly why it, in reality, matters. I'm not saying you have to agree with it, if you don't want to.

[Earth]

The long history of connection between Israel and the US explains perfectly why it, in reality, matters. I'm not saying you have to agree with it, if you don't want to.

What does it explain, exactly, in foreign policy terms?

The association between the US and Israel really only gained steam in the 1960s following the Six Day War.

The holocaust's memory is being exploited, to say the least. To draw a line between a sickening inhuman act, to a political justification for anything is pretty vile.

[Joe Republic]

Are you kidding or did you really misunderstand ? By "we" I obviously meant the western countries.

I understood you perfectly.  However, I am not the Western world, and neither are you.

You're asking me to take a personal interest in the conflict, and suggesting ways it can be improved.  Then you apparently went off on a tangent about how the 'Western world' can improve things; an entity that you have now clarified is separate from simply 'you and me'.

So again, what connection am I supposed to feel to that tiny strip of desert thousands of miles away, and its miserable god-fearing inhabitants?