Best case scenario

[Bandit3 the Worker]

I was shocked that Gore won Maryland while losing West Virginia.

We're always hearing about all this right-wing stuff going on in Maryland, especially in wealthy suburbs - like censoring books in school libraries and things like that. Besides, I still remembered how Dukakis got demolished in Maryland in 1988 while winning West Virginia.

I know there was a rural Republican trend in 2000, and Gore wasn't all that liberal on economic issues, because he wanted to appease the suburbs, but still it was surprising.

[Nym90]

Well, Dukakis didn't exactly get demolished in Maryland in 1988, he only lost it by 3 points. Maryland has been a Democratic state for quite some time, it's been a long time since it was more Republican than the nation as a whole. If memory serves it has been more Democratic than the national average in every Presidential election since 1960 with the exception of 1972 (when having Agnew as his running mate was probably helping Nixon).

However, there has been a suburban trend toward Democrats and a rural trend toward Republicans going on, especially as compared to 1988. I think this is mostly because on cultural issues, Democrats are more in line with suburbs (who tend to be socially liberal though more economically conservative) while Republicans are more in line with rural areas on cultural matters though more out of step with them on economics. Obviously these are generalizations that don't hold everywhere, but the increased emphasis on cultural and social issues has driven this trend somewhat, I think.

In Michigan for example, Oakland county, which is in the Detroit suburbs and is the 3rd or 4th wealthiest county in the nation, voted for Gore, while Keweenaw county, at the very northern tip of the state and the poorest county in Michigan, voted for Bush. Keweenaw had voted for Dukakis in 1988 and even Mondale in 1984, while Oakland had voted for Bush in 1992.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Just look at the counties in the 2000 election.  Bush won like 70% of them.  Yet, Gore wins the popular vote.  Gore won huge in urban areas.  Bush won huge in rural areas.  That was true over the entire nation.  

[??????????]

Just look at the counties in the 2000 election.  Bush won like 70% of them.  Yet, Gore wins the popular vote.  Gore won huge in urban areas.  Bush won huge in rural areas.  That was true over the entire nation.  

That's the best argument for keeping the E.C.

[Nym90]

How is that an argument for keeping the EC? Are you saying that the less densely populated the land around you is, the more important your vote should be?

Unless you are using the Opebo line of logic, and saying that since the EC helps Republicans, it is good by definition.

[??????????]

Like I've said 35 times before the E.C. keeps balance between the small and large states. The E.C. keeps N.Y., LA. and whatever else big cities from choosing the president every time.

[Nym90]

No, the popular vote maintains the balance between small states and large states, by upholding the principle of one person, one vote. The EC skews things strongly in favor of close states and strongly against lopsided states, and also has a slight bias in favor of small states and against large states. A vote in New York and a vote in Los Angeles and a vote in Barrow, Alaska all count the same in the popular vote, but they don't with the Electoral College system.

[??????????]

The problem is the winner-take-all theory. For Example. IF half of Ohio voted Bush and the other half Kerry then each candidate should get 10 of Ohios E.C. votes. That's how I believe it was originally.

[Gustaf]

Like I've said 35 times before the E.C. keeps balance between the small and large states. The E.C. keeps N.Y., LA. and whatever else big cities from choosing the president every time.

That's nonsense. I live in a country with complete PP and our capitol is pretty out of step with the rest of the country. Rural people usually win our elections. Turnout is lower in the big cities than elsewhere and there is no sign of them dominating.

[opebo]

How is that an argument for keeping the EC? Are you saying that the less densely populated the land around you is, the more important your vote should be?

Unless you are using the Opebo line of logic, and saying that since the EC helps Republicans, it is good by definition.

That is my line of thinking, yes.  But in addition its also my reason for thinking that the EC will never go away - it so clearly favours Republicans, and they will always control enough states to prevent a constitutional amendment passing.  Hopefully.

[Gustaf]

How is that an argument for keeping the EC? Are you saying that the less densely populated the land around you is, the more important your vote should be?

Unless you are using the Opebo line of logic, and saying that since the EC helps Republicans, it is good by definition.

That is my line of thinking, yes.  But in addition its also my reason for thinking that the EC will never go away - it so clearly favours Republicans, and they will always control enough states to prevent a constitutional amendment passing.  Hopefully.

You never know, people might turn moral on you one day...

[Nym90]

What it comes down to is this: should a person's vote count equally no matter where they live, or should it count more or less depending on which state they live in?

Because it is a clear fact that under the EC, some people's votes have more influence on the outcome than others. Certainly one can debate whether that is good or bad, but it doesn't change the basic facts.

You are right, Opebo, that the EC probably won't be abolished because the GOP (and especially the small states) are against it.

Let me guess, you used to be for Congressional term limits, but then starting in 1995 you began to oppose them?

[opebo]

What it comes down to is this: should a person's vote count equally no matter where they live, or should it count more or less depending on which state they live in?

Because it is a clear fact that under the EC, some people's votes have more influence on the outcome than others. Certainly one can debate whether that is good or bad, but it doesn't change the basic facts.

You are right, Opebo, that the EC probably won't be abolished because the GOP (and especially the small states) are against it.

Let me guess, you used to be for Congressional term limits, but then starting in 1995 you began to oppose them?

No, I've never been for congressional term limits.  Assinine idea.

[angus]

Term limits already existed since the time the constitution was written.  You don't like your guy?  Get off your duff and get him voted out.  I get to keep my job as long as I'm doing it well.  Same goes for politicians.

Well, obviously I'm not doing it well just now.  

I should.  later.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

That's why I left. I have seen what so many years of Democrats running the place has done to it. Turned Baltimore into a dump.

It was a Democratic Governor (Shafer) who led the whole Baltimore revitalization effort that gave us the Inner Harbor, the Aquarium, Camden Yards, and the Ravens.  Granted, this glosses over the problems of the inner city, but the same sort of problems exist in  poor urban areas across the country.  

Gov. Glendening (a Dem) turned the University of Maryland from one of the worst state universities in the nation to one of the best.   The school has been forced to drastically hike tuition under our new Republican Governor, who is taking the failure of his slots proposal out on everyone.

And Montgomery County (where I live) has arguably the best public school system in the country.  I believe it is currently represented in the state legislature by 31 Dems and 1 Republicans.  

 

[??????????]

That's why I left. I have seen what so many years of Democrats running the place has done to it. Turned Baltimore into a dump.

It was a Democratic Governor (Shafer) who led the whole Baltimore revitalization effort that gave us the Inner Harbor, the Aquarium, Camden Yards, and the Ravens.  Granted, this glosses over the problems of the inner city, but the same sort of problems exist in  poor urban areas across the country.  

Gov. Glendening (a Dem) turned the University of Maryland from one of the worst state universities in the nation to one of the best.   The school has been forced to drastically hike tuition under our new Republican Governor, who is taking the failure of his slots proposal out on everyone.

And Montgomery County (where I live) has arguably the best public school system in the country.  I believe it is currently represented in the state legislature by 31 Dems and 1 Republicans.  

 

Schafer was a idiot. He disillusioned a LOT of people by calling the Eastern Shore a out house. I'm glad he's gone. He may have done all these great wonderful things but the poverty and drugs has turned the city to trash.

[??????????]

Here is a example why we must keep the E.C.

Ok say we take New York, Miami, LA, Detroit, Boston. Whats that about 15 - 20 million? Say a Hitler type facist or some bad dude comes up and wants to run for president. If he has support from the cities he has a very very very good chance of winning. At least with the E.C. their is a better chance of keeping a true tyrant out.

[classical liberal]

The poverty and drugs are going away, block by block.  The urban reclamation has actually been quite effective.

[??????????]

The poverty and drugs are going away, block by block.  The urban reclamation has actually been quite effective.

Isn't that because Baltimore elected a REPUBLICAN Mayor? I havent been keeping up with their politics, just what I hear from relatives.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

The poverty and drugs are going away, block by block.  The urban reclamation has actually been quite effective.

Isn't that because Baltimore elected a REPUBLICAN Mayor? I havent been keeping up with their politics, just what I hear from relatives.

The current Mayor of Baltimore is Martin O'Malley, a Democrat who is very popular and will probably run for Governor or Senate in '06.  

And Shafer isn't gone....he's currently serving his second term as MD Comptroller, well into his 80's.   Though you're right about him alienating A LOT of people.  His blood fued with Glendening pretty much dominated Annapolis politics in the late 90's.

[Nation]

That's why I left. I have seen what so many years of Democrats running the place has done to it. Turned Baltimore into a dump.

It was a Democratic Governor (Shafer) who led the whole Baltimore revitalization effort that gave us the Inner Harbor, the Aquarium, Camden Yards, and the Ravens.  Granted, this glosses over the problems of the inner city, but the same sort of problems exist in  poor urban areas across the country.  

Gov. Glendening (a Dem) turned the University of Maryland from one of the worst state universities in the nation to one of the best.   The school has been forced to drastically hike tuition under our new Republican Governor, who is taking the failure of his slots proposal out on everyone.

And Montgomery County (where I live) has arguably the best public school system in the country.  I believe it is currently represented in the state legislature by 31 Dems and 1 Republicans.  

 

I don't like Ehrlic, but it is NOT his fault that the tuition at UMD is going up.

You're absolutely right about the public schools in Montgomery -- a solid group of schools, having attended some of them myself.

Anne Arundel County is in much worse shape -- partially because we have an appointed schoolboard, not an elected one, which I believe makes a big difference.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

That's why I left. I have seen what so many years of Democrats running the place has done to it. Turned Baltimore into a dump.

It was a Democratic Governor (Shafer) who led the whole Baltimore revitalization effort that gave us the Inner Harbor, the Aquarium, Camden Yards, and the Ravens.  Granted, this glosses over the problems of the inner city, but the same sort of problems exist in  poor urban areas across the country.  

Gov. Glendening (a Dem) turned the University of Maryland from one of the worst state universities in the nation to one of the best.   The school has been forced to drastically hike tuition under our new Republican Governor, who is taking the failure of his slots proposal out on everyone.

And Montgomery County (where I live) has arguably the best public school system in the country.  I believe it is currently represented in the state legislature by 31 Dems and 1 Republicans.  

 

I don't like Ehrlic, but it is NOT his fault that the tuition at UMD is going up.

It is partially, since he refuses the sign the tax increases that the state house have proposed.

[??????????]

They want to raise taxes there? Good grief, they are already high enough. Go Ehrlic!

[Nation]

My biggest problem with Bobby E is that he remains semi-popular here, yet he's done NOTHING except veto stuff and whine about slots.

Yes, let's bring in more gambling to MD. That will solve all our problems.

[Nation]

Hey, I'm now a YaBB God. BOW BEFORE ME.