Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

How fast would depend upon how big the blast was.  However, ship's propellers are tough.  You target the propeller with a blast because the point where the driveshaft pierces the hull is a weak point in any ship.

[Lunar]

Regardless -- the activists had been publicly declaring this flotilla's existence for weeks. 

Why didn't Israel announce in advance, especially to Turkey, about what level of response these ships could expect?  By all accounts these ships contained nothing but activists, they wouldn't be giving away military secrets here.

Why didn't Israeli forces come armed with nonlethal weapons?  Where was the teargas? 

Why does Israel block almost all exports from Gaza, completely devastating the local economy?

Why is this the list of banned imports?

[Lunar]

Also, isn't the IDF, for obvious reasons, already trained and equipped in dealing with unruly mobs with non-lethal force?

[Lunar]

Of the activists aboard the ship, Israel is not letting them keep even their clothes, let alone their cell phones, laptops, and cameras. 

That's how you know the IDF version of the story is 100% accurate.  The complete destruction of all evidence.

[Lunar]

All of the information the IDF has released has been from one minute (!) of the battle, when by all accounts this was an event of a few hours.  Why?

They apparently have video footage of the whole battle.  If the IDF's story is correct, and the activists aboard the ship initiated the violence, why the hell wouldn't they release that video?  All we get is 1 minute proving that some people aboard the ship attacked the IDF forces with chairs, metal poles, and whatnot.  Why wouldn't the IDF release the beginning of the conflict, which, if their story is correct, would be probably one of the best pieces of propaganda possible to put out there?

[??????????]

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001114.html

yes, what a terrible place.

[Lunar]

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001114.html

yes, what a terrible place.

Yay anecdotes!  

65% of their children are malnourished:

http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/47d4e277b48d9d3685256ddc00612265/9a265f2a909e9a1d8525772e004fc34b?OpenDocument


edit: Well, food insecure, which leads to chronic cases of malnutrition.  Maybe poorly worded on my part.

[Lunar]

And States: That sort of anecdotal bs cuts both ways.  Michael Moore, in Fahrenheit 9'/11, used countless images of smiling Iraqi children playing in playgrounds to depict Iraq as some sort of paradise before we invaded it, which we both know it wasn't (not that our invasion necessarily helped).

It's hard to accept that the IDF wasn't outrageously stupid here.

[Lunar]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704366504575278621338138694.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion

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"tens of thousands of dollars??"

That's pennies!  Mary Cheney just formed a front group for RGA slush funds with that same budget plus a few zeros.  And that front group will be barely noticed.  If your group funds terrorist activities at about %0.1 of the amount of what third-party groups, both legitimate and shadow campaigns, spend to play in just a singular primary election in a mid-sized state...

"Tens of thousands of dollars" is a pittance.  "Tens of thousands of dollars" is a tiny fraction of the maximum contribution by a single individual for candidates running for statewide office in NY!

[2952-0-0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b06gRN_tL74

Netanyahu's shill gets owned when he is told of the Turkish naval escort.

[dead0man]

Why was there no insanity on the first 5 ships boarded?

[John Dibble]

They probably wouldn't have released a video at all if they had started the violence. By showing a video, even a partial clip, they let anyone who ends up investigating know that it was recorded and as such they could ask to see the whole thing beginning to end. Being forthright with the evidence does a hell of a lot to help their credibility with me.

Footage shown by the other side, on Turkish public television, shows a much different story. There is a right not to produce self-incriminating evidence, so almost certainly the Israeli government will conveniently refuse to show those parts which do not support their story. After all, if they are serious at producing the whole truth they would have produced the entire video by now.

Could you link the video, please? There doesn't appear to be a link to it in the thread yet, and I think it would be helpful to the debate to have more evidence for either side.

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The blockade has not been determined to be illegal though, and if it is legal then boarding in international waters is legal as stated earlier in the thread. Again, I'm fine with debating the legality and if it is illegal Israel has a good deal of fault here, thought I doubt there wouldn't have been any violence if it did happen in their waters.

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Except your house generally wouldn't be moving into a military blockade with the intention of passing it, unless you had a very odd house. Or a houseboat. It was entirely expected that they would be intercepted, in international waters or Israeli waters. They knew it was going to happen.

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I don't disagree. As I stated earlier I think they made some poor decisions here.

[Silent Hunter]

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Jas, that is an insulting statement and I ask you to withdraw it.

In fact, your whole post is insulting in its tone and I am placing you on ignore until I get a personal apology.

[GMantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b06gRN_tL74

Netanyahu's shill gets owned when he is told of the Turkish naval escort.

It's interesting that he regards such an escort as an act of war.

[Silent Hunter]

I was making an argument on how the blockade could be interpreted as legal- there has been no definitive enforceable ruling either.

However, I will say this clearly:

The blockade and the rocket attacks must stop.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b06gRN_tL74

Netanyahu's shill gets owned when he is told of the Turkish naval escort.

it's the Turkish Navy that is going to get owned if they send warships.  The next war is coming very soon and Israel can not allow Gaza to be used as a base.

[GMantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b06gRN_tL74

Netanyahu's shill gets owned when he is told of the Turkish naval escort.

it's the Turkish Navy that is going to get owned if they send warships.  The next war is coming very soon and Israel can not allow Gaza to be used as a base.

Yes, and then Israel will get owned when Turkey invades them through Syria.
You think the Israeli leadership is so stupid as to actually attacks a Turkish navy escort?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

it's the Turkish Navy that is going to get owned if they send warships.  The next war is coming very soon and Israel can not allow Gaza to be used as a base.

Yes, and then Israel will get owned when Turkey invades them through Syria.
You think the Israeli leadership is so stupid as to actually attacks a Turkish navy escort?

1)  I don't think Turkey is dumb enough to send warships
2)  Israel has little choice but to continue the blockade, but it would only fire on the Turks if they attempt to break through the blockade
3)  Israel can handle Turkey
4)  Israel and Turkey will be at war one day

[ag]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b06gRN_tL74

Netanyahu's shill gets owned when he is told of the Turkish naval escort.

it's the Turkish Navy that is going to get owned if they send warships.  The next war is coming very soon and Israel can not allow Gaza to be used as a base.

Attacking a NATO member? That' would pose very difficult problems for the US. I doubt US would immediately nuke Tel Aviv ), but the ammount of pressure that Israel would be facing at that point would be extraordinary. They'd have to sacrifice something very big and very public to get out of that hole.

[ag]

4)  Israel and Turkey will be at war one day

Turkey is a NATO member. A crucial NATO member, BTW. One of THE most crucial US allies. Are you suggesting US and Israel are going to fight? And, BTW, whose side would you be on in such a war?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Attacking a NATO member? That' would pose very difficult problems for the US. I doubt US would immediately nuke Tel Aviv ), but the ammount of pressure that Israel would be facing at that point would be extraordinary. They'd have to sacrifice something very big and very public to get out of that hole.

who says Israel would fire first?  The Jews would simply stop the cargo ship, if the Turks want to try to stop Israel from stopping the ship then it is the Turks that are causing the problem (though the world would still view it as Israel causing the problem)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

4)  Israel and Turkey will be at war one day

Turkey is a NATO member. A crucial NATO member, BTW. One of THE most crucial US allies. Are you suggesting US and Israel are going to fight? And, BTW, whose side would you be on in such a war?

Smell the coffee - Turkey is no longer an ally of the U.S.  And I will ALWAYS be on the side of Israel as long it is defending its existence.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Regardless -- the activists had been publicly declaring this flotilla's existence for weeks. 

Why didn't Israel announce in advance, especially to Turkey, about what level of response these ships could expect?  By all accounts these ships contained nothing but activists, they wouldn't be giving away military secrets here.

Why didn't Israeli forces come armed with nonlethal weapons?  Where was the teargas? 

Why does Israel block almost all exports from Gaza, completely devastating the local economy?

Why is this the list of banned imports?

Because they want to make the lives of others miserable, DUH.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

4)  Israel and Turkey will be at war one day

Turkey is a NATO member. A crucial NATO member, BTW. One of THE most crucial US allies. Are you suggesting US and Israel are going to fight? And, BTW, whose side would you be on in such a war?

Smell the coffee - Turkey is no longer an ally of the U.S.  And I will ALWAYS be on the side of Israel as long it is defending its existence.

Unless some divinity changes that country's location on my map, we're going to be their ally.......period. 

[WillK]

Attacking a NATO member? That' would pose very difficult problems for the US. I doubt US would immediately nuke Tel Aviv ), but the ammount of pressure that Israel would be facing at that point would be extraordinary. They'd have to sacrifice something very big and very public to get out of that hole.

who says Israel would fire first?  The Jews would simply stop the cargo ship, if the Turks want to try to stop Israel from stopping the ship then it is the Turks that are causing the problem (though the world would still view it as Israel causing the problem)

How will they stop the ship without any firing?