biblical inerrancy

[Derek]

No one has ever agreed on scriptures. Especially the first Christians. Ever hear of the Council of Nicea in 325. I'm not endorsing the Da Vinci Code but the establishment of Chrisianity throughout the Roman Empire was hardly a peaceful process. Only 8% of the empire was Christian and it took many murders to persuade the pagans to join. Both sides, pagan and Christian were very violent. You can read about it however you want but remember it's the winners of history who write history.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

James 1: 22 ”Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.”

And that is exactly why I read it – it provides a mirror so that I see myself according to how God sees me so that I can change myself to be a reflection of his word, and by being a reflection of his word, I am closer to being a reflection of him

The way you use it, it provides a mirror you pray to.  Your interpretation, not those of the early Christians or even the Bible itself. 

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You have already pointed out that even the first Christians didn't agree on the scriptures.  You have elevated them to be the scriptures (and in all fairness, so have others).

You woefully don't understand, the Bible doesn't make these claims as to what is or isn't scripture.  Men, far removed in time (and often space) are the people claiming "These are the scriptures."

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I don't mock anyone who attempts to obey God; I do not mock those who have faith in God.  I do mock those who take the works of man and elevate it to godhood.

Jesus and the Apostles quoted from what they considered “scripture”….do you want to just stick to the books they considered scripture and find me a single remark from those books that scolds people for following the written word?  Because, again, I can pick several dozen examples, even from the Old Testament, that command believers to follow the written word.

You have nothing but excuses.

[J. J.]

Jesus and the Apostles quoted from what they considered “scripture”….do you want to just stick to the books they considered scripture and find me a single remark from those books that scolds people for following the written word?  Because, again, I can pick several dozen examples, even from the Old Testament, that command believers to follow the written word.

You have nothing but excuses.

Jesus and the Apostles  never said what those scriptures were.   The Christians of the next century couldn't come up with a list and even all of those lists didn't include what we think of as the scriptures today.

Face it, when you pick up a King James version of the Bible, you are looking at, at best, what a group 17th Century men think should be in the Bible, not what Jesus, the Apostles, or 1st Century Christians say it was.

[Derek]

James 1: 22 ”Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.”

And that is exactly why I read it – it provides a mirror so that I see myself according to how God sees me so that I can change myself to be a reflection of his word, and by being a reflection of his word, I am closer to being a reflection of him

The way you use it, it provides a mirror you pray to.  Your interpretation, not those of the early Christians or even the Bible itself. 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You have already pointed out that even the first Christians didn't agree on the scriptures.  You have elevated them to be the scriptures (and in all fairness, so have others).

You woefully don't understand, the Bible doesn't make these claims as to what is or isn't scripture.  Men, far removed in time (and often space) are the people claiming "These are the scriptures."

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't mock anyone who attempts to obey God; I do not mock those who have faith in God.  I do mock those who take the works of man and elevate it to godhood.

Jesus and the Apostles quoted from what they considered “scripture”….do you want to just stick to the books they considered scripture and find me a single remark from those books that scolds people for following the written word?  Because, again, I can pick several dozen examples, even from the Old Testament, that command believers to follow the written word.

You have nothing but excuses.

You are referring to the Old Testament then. That my friend is the most complex document of several stories from a plethora of cultures over a thousand years. Most of Jesus' disciples would not have known that at their age or been educated enough to know better. Do you even know how discipleship worked back then?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jesus and the Apostles  never said what those scriptures were.   The Christians of the next century couldn't come up with a list and even all of those lists didn't include what we think of as the scriptures today.

Face it, when you pick up a King James version of the Bible, you are looking at, at best, what a group 17th Century men think should be in the Bible, not what Jesus, the Apostles, or 1st Century Christians say it was.

hate to shake you up, but we have copies of the Old Testament books Jesus and the Apostles quoted from that PREDATE the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.  So feel free to provide some examples from within those book that back up your assertion that obedience to scripture is idolatry.

sorry you never heard of someone combining faith with obedience to scripture, but every single writer of both the Old and New Testaments believed and practiced it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You are referring to the Old Testament then. That my friend is the most complex document of several stories from a plethora of cultures over a thousand years. Most of Jesus' disciples would not have known that at their age or been educated enough to know better. Do you even know how discipleship worked back then?

you should run an IP check on yourself as you must be a sock, for anyone reading the New Testament can clearly see that the Apostles knew the Old Testament backwards and forwards and expected their audience to also know the Old Testament scriptures.

[Derek]

I think it's good to obey scripture and great that the disciples did. In fact, I myself go by some of it. However, they are far from written by Yahweh or God as we know the deity today. The disciples would have likely been between age 12-20 as was common to follow their rabbi which was Jesus. One of the disciples would be older in case something happened to the rabbi. That was Peter in this case. I know at church plays you see men in their 30s with long hair and beards but that is ridiculous.  Jesus understood that the point isn't whether or not you take the scriptures literally or who wrote them, but the point is rather the meaning that is found.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I think it's good to obey scripture and great that the disciples did. In fact, I myself go by some of it. However, they are far from written by Yahweh or God as we know the deity today.

again, we have copies of the Old Testament books quoted by Jesus and the Apostles that predate the birth of Christ.  The Dead Sea Scrolls, which date from 150BC and are written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek!!!  And within the Dead Sea Scroll are every book of the OT (except perhaps Ester) and there are multiple copies of the same books (24 copies of Genesis, 33 copies of Deuteronomy, etc, etc, etc)

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The disciples would have likely been between age 12-20 as was common to follow their rabbi which was Jesus. One of the disciples would be older in case something happened to the rabbi. That was Peter in this case. I know at church plays you see men in their 30s with long hair and beards but that is ridiculous.

all totally irrelevant to this discussion

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Jesus understood that the point isn't whether or not you take the scriptures literally or who wrote them, but the point is rather the meaning that is found.

1) Jesus took them literally
2) Jesus explicitly named the writers
3) Jesus required obedience to them

so this whole conversation is a bit silly.  Jesus is our example and if Jesus repeated said that Moses wrote the Law, then as far as I am concerned, Moses wrote it.  End of story

[Derek]

How do you know he named the authors? Man says that he named the authors, not God.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

How do you know he named the authors? Man says that he named the authors, not God.

wow, how profound!!!  Let's run with that for a moment...Man says that Jesus was also resurrected from the dead....

,,,,I fail to find a point in your logic.

[Derek]

so you're suggesting that Jesus didn't rise from the dead as ppl have passed down? I gave my reasons for believing in the resurrection. No one should base their faith on words printed and then sold in a store.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so you're suggesting that Jesus didn't rise from the dead as ppl have passed down?

no...but if I have to explain my point, then you wouldn't understand it anyway

[Derek]

Please read through my statements again and don't break them apart. Read it all together to find what I'm saying. Thanks.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Please read through my statements again and don't break them apart. Read it all together to find what I'm saying. Thanks.

Sorry, I couldn’t stand to quote any more of it since it was full of your logical contradictions and inconsistencies…see below:

Exhibit A:

How do you know he named the authors? Man says that he named the authors, not God.

Exhibit B:

so you're suggesting that Jesus didn't rise from the dead as ppl have passed down? I gave my reasons for believing in the resurrection. No one should base their faith on words printed and then sold in a store.

Exhibit C:

Alright, ppl have been questioning why I'm a Christian or how I could be a Christian if I have so many disputes with the Bible. Here are my reasons for supporting the bodily resurrection theory.

1. The disciples died for their beliefs and it's not just according to biblical accounts. People died for centuries in the name of Christ. Why would the disciples die for something that they knew was not true?

2. The women were the first to witness the empty tomb (WHICH HE WOULDN"T HAVE HAD HIS OWN TOMB) and the early Christians went from this passage. Yes, the women were the ones who took care of dead bodies back then in this regard, but why would the authors of the gospels leave this for ppl to read if it weren't true? Women were not even allowed to testify in court back then and they had no rights. Why would anyone believe what a woman reported? The authors of the gospels knew what they were up against.

In ExhibitA, you don’t believe Jesus named the writers (even though crediting Moses was something most Jews did) because you doubt human testimony….yet you turn right around in ExhibitB and reference ExhibitC which clearly has you believing in Jesus’ Resurrection (even though coming back to life was stomething most Jews did not do) based on human testimony.  

You’re either a sock created to torture me with fake stupidity, or you’re a real person torturing me with very real stupidity.  In either case, YOU’RE KILLING ME.  So, goodbye.  Hope you either get washed in an IP check, or fall on your head and have some sense knocked into your skull before you die.

P.S. -  if you are real, whatever seminary you went to should be burned to the ground immediately.

[Derek]

I am real and this subject is not worth debating because I don't want to torture anyone who is a legal citizen of the United States. Sock?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

jmfcst needs this:

[Derek]

yea I'll tell you what I don't want to get ppl going sometimes it's very hard to express yourself in words. I'm more of a writer/speaker. Human testimony in biblical times is much different from 21st century Americans interpreting this stuff into their own world.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

jmfcst needs this:

no, right about now I need this:

[Derek]

glad I'm not the only one on here who takes prescription medication from a psychiatrist.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

glad I'm not the only one on here who takes prescription medication from a psychiatrist.

I took a Valium once before eye surgery.  found it to be useless.  but, I can fall asleep standing up, so they're not not needed.

as for the pain killer vicodin, I only take about 30 pills a year (lower back pain).  is vicodin also prescribed by psychiatrists?!

[Derek]

no I only took vicodin for my wisdom teeth so it was my dentist.

[J. J.]

Jesus and the Apostles  never said what those scriptures were.   The Christians of the next century couldn't come up with a list and even all of those lists didn't include what we think of as the scriptures today.

Face it, when you pick up a King James version of the Bible, you are looking at, at best, what a group 17th Century men think should be in the Bible, not what Jesus, the Apostles, or 1st Century Christians say it was.

hate to shake you up, but we have copies of the Old Testament books Jesus and the Apostles quoted from that PREDATE the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. 

Did they quote from all of them?  Did Jesus or the Apostles ever give an all inclusive list?  Which ones did they refer to?

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Please provide an example the Book you have elevated to godhood actually lists what are the scriptures, an internal reference. 

Also note that the question you are avoiding is not "obedience" but "inerrancy."  They are not mutually inclusive.

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Oh, I'm neither talking about faith or obedience, but inerrancy.  The question of faith is faith in what, God in Trinity, or the work of men?

[Derek]

Plus there are accounts of resurrection beliefs outside of the NT. While I do find the resurrection believable in the Bible, several other sources site a belief in Christ rising from the dead. These sources such as Josephus and Tacitus may not be favorable to Christians but they do refer to this belief. Ever hear of Papias?