Opinion of Timothy McVeigh

[useful idiot]

If it makes you feel better to blame the big bad military for turning McVeigh into a monster instead of, you know, blaming McVeigh, I guess go with it.

Some people don't like to live in the dreamworld where everything is so black and white and you can just execute criminals without taking a look at the conditions or the society that bred them. Whether you like it or not, people are a product of their environment and influences. If you want to deny that militarism and nationalism play a significant part in how violent our society is, well I guess everyone has the right to be foolish....

So what about people that never served in the military? Are they also affected by whatever supposedly motivated McVeigh?

And what about people involved in school shootings in Germany or Sweden or wherever else? Is it a product of German militarism?

I don't buy the notion that a person is released from responsibility for his actions because of whatever society did to "motivate" his actions.

Nobody forced him to kill so many people, and even if one accepts the notion that he "learned to kill" in the military and recognized that killing people was wrong (as you suggested based on his assertions in that book), isn't that actually something that should prevent him from doing it again, by that logic?

People who never served in the military can certainly be affected by the highly violent and aggressive society we live in.

I never said McVeigh wasn't responsible for his actions, but he was obviously unstable and shouldn't have been taught to murder or that it was ok to kill civilians in the pursuit of a political goal.

He said he learned to view the people he was sent to kill as no different from him. He felt it was wrong, but that he needed to do the same thing to Americans to get them to see the error of their ways and cause an uprising. Obviously this is silly, Americans are far too stupid to see the error of their ways, and killing people to prove a point doesn't help your argument. Of course people could have taken this opportunity to look at why his actions were so evil and apply that same standard to actions taken by their government, but the "lets kill him, he's so evil!" mentality set in. Much like how they should have seen 9/11 as an opportunity to examine our foreign policy and understand why there was so much anger out there towards us, rather than resort to cheap jingoism. Again, the American public blew it.

As for school shootings in non-American countries, I don't know how they're relevant, other than to say that there are mentally unstable people who get really f-cked up and driven to do terrible things. It's not the cases of violence in those countries that are relevant, but their rarity. Shootings and murder in general are less prevalent in Sweden and Germany, and obviously those two countries aren't as militarized or violent as ours.

[dead0man]

If it makes you feel better to blame the big bad military for turning McVeigh into a monster instead of, you know, blaming McVeigh, I guess go with it.

Some people don't like to live in the dreamworld where everything is so black and white and you can just execute criminals without taking a look at the conditions or the society that bred them. Whether you like it or not, people are a product of their environment and influences. If you want to deny that militarism and nationalism play a significant part in how violent our society is, well I guess everyone has the right to be foolish....

Are you saying most real violence in this country is based on militarism and nationalism?  Most real violence in this country is committed by vets and people that irrationally love their country?  Has militarism and nationalism increased since 1991?  I'd assume so.  Why has violent crime dropped so much over that time if it militarism and nationalism play a significant part in how violent our society is?
cite

[dead0man]

As for school shootings in non-American countries, I don't know how they're relevant, other than to say that there are mentally unstable people who get really f-cked up and driven to do terrible things. It's not the cases of violence in those countries that are relevant, but their rarity. Shootings and murder in general are less prevalent in Sweden and Germany, and obviously those two countries aren't as militarized or violent as ours.

And I guess there are no other differences between the US and Sweden and Germany so it HAS to be our militarism and nationalism that makes our country so much more violent. 

Remember kids, its only ok to compare the US to a smaller, more homogeneous Euro country when the outcome proves your point.

[Joe Republic]

By the way, I'm surprised nobody else has yet pointed out the startling resemblance between McVeigh and Eminem.

[Mechaman]

After thinking about this for a few weeks, and reading up on McVeigh's history, I have to agree with Useful Idiot on this.  Did McVeigh set off the bombs that killed those people?  Yes he did, but that doesn't change the fact that just like Charles Manson and many other deranged individuals that he was a victim of his environment.
This sure as hell doesn't make him a freedom fighter, but who really is the horrible person?  McVeigh, or the people who screwed him up?

Neutral

[useful idiot]

If it makes you feel better to blame the big bad military for turning McVeigh into a monster instead of, you know, blaming McVeigh, I guess go with it.

Some people don't like to live in the dreamworld where everything is so black and white and you can just execute criminals without taking a look at the conditions or the society that bred them. Whether you like it or not, people are a product of their environment and influences. If you want to deny that militarism and nationalism play a significant part in how violent our society is, well I guess everyone has the right to be foolish....

Are you saying most real violence in this country is based on militarism and nationalism?  Most real violence in this country is committed by vets and people that irrationally love their country?  Has militarism and nationalism increased since 1991?  I'd assume so.  Why has violent crime dropped so much over that time if it militarism and nationalism play a significant part in how violent our society is?
cite

I NEVER said that most violence is committed by vets, or suggested it. We live in a violent and militaristic society, one where our nationalist government and exceptionalist stance toward the world is reflected in the arrogance and greed of our people. It has effects on our quickness to resort to violence to solve problems, and the methods we use to obtain what we want.

I don't know why you'd assume that we're a more militaristic and nationalist society than we were in 1991. If you wanted to go down that road then I could suggest that our military is much smaller now than it was in the 80's, and that we actually don't intervene in as many countries as we did during the cold war. I don't think there's a correlation between the size of the military and crime rates though. We still have a much higher incidence of violent crime as compared to other developed nations anyway.

[useful idiot]

As for school shootings in non-American countries, I don't know how they're relevant, other than to say that there are mentally unstable people who get really f-cked up and driven to do terrible things. It's not the cases of violence in those countries that are relevant, but their rarity. Shootings and murder in general are less prevalent in Sweden and Germany, and obviously those two countries aren't as militarized or violent as ours.

And I guess there are no other differences between the US and Sweden and Germany so it HAS to be our militarism and nationalism that makes our country so much more violent. 

Remember kids, its only ok to compare the US to a smaller, more homogeneous Euro country when the outcome proves your point.

Well what nations do you suggest we compare ourselves to? Other large nations with diverse populations? There's no nationalism and militarism in Russia of course...

There are no other developed countries with our population size, other than Japan, but I suppose they don't fit your criteria because they are "homogenous", and our problems with crime and violence are all to do with race problems?

If you want to compare the U.S. to a similar population size, then take the combined populations of France, Germany, and the U.K.; these aren't homogenous nations. Yet the incidence of violent crime is far far lower in these three countries.

[Magic 8-Ball]

Wtf do HP and FF mean? I don't think he was a bad person at all. He was misguided and should've taken political or legal action rather than attack our country.

You don't think killing dozens of people makes you a bad person?

So what you're saying is that the Clinton administration was bad for murdering ppl at Waco?

By any chance, do you live in Fort Wayne, Indiana?

[The Mikado]

Wtf do HP and FF mean? I don't think he was a bad person at all. He was misguided and should've taken political or legal action rather than attack our country.

You don't think killing dozens of people makes you a bad person?

So what you're saying is that the Clinton administration was bad for murdering ppl at Waco?

By any chance, do you live in Fort Wayne, Indiana?

Great post.

Sadly, it doesn't fit.  He's in Western Pennsylvania and the IP looks authentic.

[Magic 8-Ball]

Wtf do HP and FF mean? I don't think he was a bad person at all. He was misguided and should've taken political or legal action rather than attack our country.

You don't think killing dozens of people makes you a bad person?

So what you're saying is that the Clinton administration was bad for murdering ppl at Waco?

By any chance, do you live in Fort Wayne, Indiana?

Great post.

Sadly, it doesn't fit.  He's in Western Pennsylvania and the IP looks authentic.

You mean...there's a real Coburn out there?

How depressing.

[Earth]

Last night I watched that MSNBC "Confessions" show they made about McVeigh. The thing that most struck me about him was the sad circumstances that he found himself in, his mental state, and the subsequent bombing he masterminded. The entire thing was just depressing.

I don't consider him a monster, or evil; here's a good example of a seemingly ordinary individual suffering internally, and taking it out on the world, with horrific consequences.

[Art Cole]

Noble Cause but Bad Tactics.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Last night I watched that MSNBC "Confessions" show they made about McVeigh. The thing that most struck me about him was the sad circumstances that he found himself in, his mental state, and the subsequent bombing he masterminded. The entire thing was just depressing.

I don't consider him a monster, or evil; here's a good example of a seemingly ordinary individual suffering internally, and taking it out on the world, with horrific consequences.

Quite good show, no?

[useful idiot]

Last night I watched that MSNBC "Confessions" show they made about McVeigh. The thing that most struck me about him was the sad circumstances that he found himself in, his mental state, and the subsequent bombing he masterminded. The entire thing was just depressing.

I don't consider him a monster, or evil; here's a good example of a seemingly ordinary individual suffering internally, and taking it out on the world, with horrific consequences.

Quite good show, no?

The only thing I didn't like were the computer generated images of him, they didn't resemble Timothy McVeigh and they looked silly.

[Derek]

He was a victim of the media.

[Tuck!]

He was a victim of the media.

I find that offensive to the real victims. McVeigh ended lives, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. He wasn't forced to become a terrorist.

[useful idiot]

He was a victim of the media.

Why do you insist on trying to provoke a reaction for no reason?

[dead0man]

Come on man, you're not new to the internet   Just put him on ignore and move on.

[Derek]

I do not mean to offend anyone on here so I will not be posting about McVeigh anymore.

[SvenssonRS]

I do not mean to offend anyone on here so I will not be posting about McVeigh anymore.

Just don't post any more, ever again, period.