Kucinich to vote for HCR

[useful idiot]

How dare he sell out to the thousands of people in his district who will now get health insurance and let down his teenagers on the internet base!

Forcing people to buy health insurance without real cost controls doesn't help anybody other than insurance companies and scummy politicians who want an "achievement" to wave in front of the voters, stop pretending otherwise...

[Associate Justice PiT]

     No politician is above selling out when it gets down to it. Disappointing, but not surprising.

[segwaystyle2012]

    No politician is above selling out when it gets down to it. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Jim DeMint and Jim Inhofe say hi.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     No politician is above selling out when it gets down to it. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Jim DeMint and Tom Coburn say hi.

     Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where they really got their arms twisted by Republican leaders? I will admit that Tom Coburn's ardent anti-pork stance is something that Congress could use a lot more of.

[segwaystyle2012]

     No politician is above selling out when it gets down to it. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Jim DeMint and Tom Coburn say hi.

     Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where they really got their arms twisted by Republican leaders? I will admit that Tom Coburn's ardent anti-pork stance is something that Congress could use a lot more of.

Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where the Republican party attempted to push through legislation that was so grossly unpopular with the American people?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     No politician is above selling out when it gets down to it. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Jim DeMint and Tom Coburn say hi.

     Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where they really got their arms twisted by Republican leaders? I will admit that Tom Coburn's ardent anti-pork stance is something that Congress could use a lot more of.

Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where the Republican party attempted to push through legislation that was so grossly unpopular with the American people?

     No, though that doesn't contradict the point that I was trying to make in my previous post, namely that Coburn & DeMint probably have never been put under the same pressure to submit as Kucinich has. I am not trying to make any excuses for Kucinich here, but it's easier to resist selling out when you don't encounter real adversity over it.

[segwaystyle2012]

     No politician is above selling out when it gets down to it. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Jim DeMint and Tom Coburn say hi.

     Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where they really got their arms twisted by Republican leaders? I will admit that Tom Coburn's ardent anti-pork stance is something that Congress could use a lot more of.

Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where the Republican party attempted to push through legislation that was so grossly unpopular with the American people?

     No, though that doesn't contradict the point that I was trying to make in my previous post, namely that Coburn & DeMint probably have never been put under the same pressure to submit as Kucinich has. I am not trying to make any excuses for Kucinich here, but it's easier to resist selling out when you don't encounter real adversity over it.

The Republicans wouldn't push such an unpopular agenda upon the American people. Even as a liberaltarian you would have to admit that Bush's Court pciks were better than Clinton's or Barry's.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     No politician is above selling out when it gets down to it. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Jim DeMint and Tom Coburn say hi.

     Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where they really got their arms twisted by Republican leaders? I will admit that Tom Coburn's ardent anti-pork stance is something that Congress could use a lot more of.

Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where the Republican party attempted to push through legislation that was so grossly unpopular with the American people?

     No, though that doesn't contradict the point that I was trying to make in my previous post, namely that Coburn & DeMint probably have never been put under the same pressure to submit as Kucinich has. I am not trying to make any excuses for Kucinich here, but it's easier to resist selling out when you don't encounter real adversity over it.

The Republicans wouldn't push such an unpopular agenda upon the American people. Even as a liberaltarian you would have to admit that Bush's Court pciks were better than Clinton's or Barry's.

     Once again, my point is that they haven't suffered the pressure to sell out that Kucinich did. Whether or not their party would ever undertake an agenda so unpopular that it would induce the party leaders to put the squeeze on them is besides the point.

     How could they not be? Law is a discipline where a certain level of conservatism is demanded. Not to mention that Obama's comments on the matter make me doubt that he could ever come up with a good SCOTUS appointment:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/SCOTUS/story?id=7493944&page=1

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[Brittain33]

     Do you know of any instances off the top of your head where they really got their arms twisted by Republican leaders? I will admit that Tom Coburn's ardent anti-pork stance is something that Congress could use a lot more of.

Yes. Jim DeMint voted for the socialist Medicare D prescription drug benefit because the Republican leadership threatened to withdraw support from his Senate campaign if he didn't switch his no to a yes.

Pretty shocking, no?

[Lief 🗽]

How dare he sell out to the thousands of people in his district who will now get health insurance and let down his teenagers on the internet base!

Forcing people to buy health insurance without real cost controls doesn't help anybody other than insurance companies and scummy politicians who want an "achievement" to wave in front of the voters, stop pretending otherwise...

There are plenty of cost controls in the bill, as well as generous subsidies for people up to four times the poverty level.

[Free Palestine]

How dare he sell out to the thousands of people in his district who will now get health insurance and let down his teenagers on the internet base!

Forcing people to buy health insurance without real cost controls doesn't help anybody other than insurance companies and scummy politicians who want an "achievement" to wave in front of the voters, stop pretending otherwise...

There are plenty of cost controls in the bill, as well as generous subsidies for people up to four times the poverty level.

Still, forcing people to buy health insurance.  Cost controls and subsidies don't make it right.

[© tweed]

How dare he sell out to the thousands of people in his district who will now get health insurance and let down his teenagers on the internet base!

Forcing people to buy health insurance without real cost controls doesn't help anybody other than insurance companies and scummy politicians who want an "achievement" to wave in front of the voters, stop pretending otherwise...

"why progressives are batsh**t crazy to..." by Nate Silver

[© tweed]

How dare he sell out to the thousands of people in his district who will now get health insurance and let down his teenagers on the internet base!

Forcing people to buy health insurance without real cost controls doesn't help anybody other than insurance companies and scummy politicians who want an "achievement" to wave in front of the voters, stop pretending otherwise...

There are plenty of cost controls in the bill, as well as generous subsidies for people up to four times the poverty level.

Still, forcing people to buy health insurance.  Cost controls and subsidies don't make it right.

that line of logic is an ass-backwards way of making policy decisions

[Sbane]

How dare he sell out to the thousands of people in his district who will now get health insurance and let down his teenagers on the internet base!

Forcing people to buy health insurance without real cost controls doesn't help anybody other than insurance companies and scummy politicians who want an "achievement" to wave in front of the voters, stop pretending otherwise...

There are plenty of cost controls in the bill, as well as generous subsidies for people up to four times the poverty level.

Still, forcing people to buy health insurance.  Cost controls and subsidies don't make it right.

Everyone needs health insurance. Unless you are advocating ambulances and ER staff look at insurance cards before they start treatment.......

[Free Palestine]

How dare he sell out to the thousands of people in his district who will now get health insurance and let down his teenagers on the internet base!

Forcing people to buy health insurance without real cost controls doesn't help anybody other than insurance companies and scummy politicians who want an "achievement" to wave in front of the voters, stop pretending otherwise...

There are plenty of cost controls in the bill, as well as generous subsidies for people up to four times the poverty level.

Still, forcing people to buy health insurance.  Cost controls and subsidies don't make it right.

that line of logic is an ass-backwards way of making policy decisions

It's ass-backward to focus on individual liberty?

[Lief 🗽]

Sometimes individual liberty is less important than the general welfare of a society.

[DariusNJ]

I don't find this too surprising.

[Oakvale]

Sometimes individual liberty is less important than the general welfare of a society.

[Free Palestine]

Sometimes individual liberty is less important than the general welfare of a society.

That may be true in some respects, such as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  But forcing people to buy health insurance is too much of an encroachment on personal liberty.

Everything for the betterment of man, I guess.  Exactly how far does this go?  How much is too much of an encroachment on personal liberties, in the name of "general welfare," to you?

[Lief 🗽]

Sometimes individual liberty is less important than the general welfare of a society.

That may be true in some respects, such as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  But forcing people to buy health insurance is too much of an encroachment on personal liberty.

Everything for the betterment of man, I guess.  Exactly how far does this go?  How much is too much of an encroachment on personal liberties, in the name of "general welfare," to you?

I don't know, I don't really have a measurement or a certain liberty to general welfare ratio that is too high or whatever. But I think that the infringement that is forcing people to buy health insurance is a relatively trivial one, especially as 1) The vast, vast majority of Americans want to have health insurance, 2) There are generous subsidies in the bill to ensure you can afford health insurance, and 3) There are caps in the bill, so that if insurance costs more than a certain amount of your income you can opt out and not purchase it.

[Free Palestine]

Sometimes individual liberty is less important than the general welfare of a society.

That may be true in some respects, such as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  But forcing people to buy health insurance is too much of an encroachment on personal liberty.

Everything for the betterment of man, I guess.  Exactly how far does this go?  How much is too much of an encroachment on personal liberties, in the name of "general welfare," to you?

I don't know, I don't really have a measurement or a certain liberty to general welfare ratio that is too high or whatever. But I think that the infringement that is forcing people to buy health insurance is a relatively trivial one, especially as 1) The vast, vast majority of Americans want to have health insurance, 2) There are generous subsidies in the bill to ensure you can afford health insurance, and 3) There are caps in the bill, so that if insurance costs more than a certain amount of your income you can opt out and not purchase it.

If the vast majority of Americans want health insurance, why is it necessary to force them to buy it?

[Sbane]

Sometimes individual liberty is less important than the general welfare of a society.

That may be true in some respects, such as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  But forcing people to buy health insurance is too much of an encroachment on personal liberty.

Everything for the betterment of man, I guess.  Exactly how far does this go?  How much is too much of an encroachment on personal liberties, in the name of "general welfare," to you?

I don't know, I don't really have a measurement or a certain liberty to general welfare ratio that is too high or whatever. But I think that the infringement that is forcing people to buy health insurance is a relatively trivial one, especially as 1) The vast, vast majority of Americans want to have health insurance, 2) There are generous subsidies in the bill to ensure you can afford health insurance, and 3) There are caps in the bill, so that if insurance costs more than a certain amount of your income you can opt out and not purchase it.

If the vast majority of Americans want health insurance, why is it necessary to force them to buy it?

Because the restrictions on people with preexisting conditions seeking to buy insurance is being lifted. If everyone was not mandated to have insurance, people could just opt out of it until they were sick.

[© tweed]

How dare he sell out to the thousands of people in his district who will now get health insurance and let down his teenagers on the internet base!

Forcing people to buy health insurance without real cost controls doesn't help anybody other than insurance companies and scummy politicians who want an "achievement" to wave in front of the voters, stop pretending otherwise...

There are plenty of cost controls in the bill, as well as generous subsidies for people up to four times the poverty level.

Still, forcing people to buy health insurance.  Cost controls and subsidies don't make it right.

that line of logic is an ass-backwards way of making policy decisions

It's ass-backward to focus on individual liberty?

wealth determines liberty

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Something to address in regards to the individual mandate is this: If you're advocating for individual liberties, but also don't want to increase burden on taxpayers, then you have 2 options:

Either accept mandates like we've done for auto insurrance.  ... or ...
Advocate for hospitals to turn people away and not even allow ER admittance to people without insurrance or cash-in-hand.

To argue that the individual mandate is a violation of our liberties, but not support hospitals turning people away makes no sense, and in my opinion is a huge hypocrisy in the argument of many conservatives.

[Lunar]

Something to address in regards to the individual mandate is this: If you're advocating for individual liberties, but also don't want to increase burden on taxpayers, then you have 2 options:

Either accept mandates like we've done for auto insurrance.  ... or ...
Advocate for hospitals to turn people away and not even allow ER admittance to people without insurrance or cash-in-hand.

To argue that the individual mandate is a violation of our liberties, but not support hospitals turning people away makes no sense, and in my opinion is a huge hypocrisy in the argument of many conservatives.

Exactly.  One additional point to remember is that the most popular plank of health-care reform (no  more denials for pre-existing conditions) could ruin our health care system without a mandate of some kind.   Otherwise, as the expensive individuals with pre-existing conditions join the insurance pool, they drive up  prices, and then the youngest and healthiest people find its more affordable to go without insurance and drop out, raising prices even more, resulting in more [and increasingly less healthy] individuals deciding insurance is too expensive and dropping out...resulting in a death spiral of runaway premiums