The Imperial Dominion of the South's Legislature

[Yelnoc]

Rehabilitation does not help anything, Mr. Viceroy. The offender will get out and do it again 20 times over. And even if you are religious or not, people agree with what I said earlier

     I find the Speaker's explanation a bit more persuasive, if I may say so myself.

     Anyway, I suspect that many rapes & murders are crimes of passion rather than the act of serial offenders. I think we've all heard it said that most rape victims are attacked by people they know. For many murderers & rapists, I suspect that they are crimes of passion that are more indicative of self-control failure than a more general trend towards criminal behavior. Granted, I am fairly certain that that's less true for murder than for rape.

There is probably something to that, at least where rape is concerned.  You will notice, however, that I did not advocate the death penalty for rapists in my amendments.  On an emotional level I would like to.  Unfortunately, there can be a lot uncertainty over the definition of rape, the circumstances, etc. which could end up with an innocent man on death row.  Permanent cessation of brain function is a lot more cut and dried.

[Mr. Taft Republican]

One of the big bonuses of Capital Punishment is the method used (lethal injection) is as painless as possible.  One inmate killing another in a jail-yard brawl is certainly not painless.  Viewing prison homicides as a plus would make me rather sadistic, no?

You bring up reform.  Part of the reason for that statistic is that murderers and rapist serve much longer jail sentences.  When they are released, they are often old men.  Even if they want to kill or rape again, they often physically cannot.  Going beyond that, you have to ask, does this man (or woman) deserve a chance at rehabilitation?  Is it worth the resources of the state to try to rehabilitate, say, a serial killer?

If the intention is revenge for the cause of suffering, why even have it be painless, but yeah, we're getting into sadism here... Uhhh, next topic! In either case, wether by physical inability or true reform, the rates ARE much lower than those of other crimes. With that I could claim that the purpose of prison was served, that rates are much lower, but I won't defend those animals.

Reform is a rosy option, and I'd certainly hope that there was truly a way to force them to repent, but no, there isn't. I metion it only as an alternative, for surly an attempt to make these men a useful resource is better than throwing their life away entirely. And even if we were to discount the possibility of their reform, why not make them useful by putting them to physical labor? Why not make a Region-run company that has commodities made by prsioners that can be sold to the taxpayers at reduced rates! Theres a direct injection into the system.

could end up with an innocent man on death row.

And theres that...

[Dancing with Myself]

All I can say is that if this is not approved/passed I will bring up until it is passed.

[Yelnoc]

All I can say is that if this is not approved/passed I will bring up until it is passed.

If you have time you could write it up.  I put up a draft on the last page and PiT pointed out the changes need.  I'm going to sleep soon.

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Yes, it's great that repeat offense rates are lower.  However, when you consider the number of convicts go through the prison system , 5% is actually quite a lot in absolute terms.  You may find capital punishment distasteful, but is the violent rape and murder a small girl not much worse?

As to your second suggestion, my sarcasm detector is blaring.  Slavery strays back into that sadism territory, no?  Though I suppose this is the Imperial Dominion of the South *sharp cackle*

[Dancing with Myself]

All I can say is that if this is not approved/passed I will bring up until it is passed.

If you have time you could write it up.  I put up a draft on the last page and PiT pointed out the changes need.  I'm going to sleep soon.

I will wait until tomorrow or when ever a decision is made about the current bill

[Mr. Taft Republican]

Rape and murder are absolutely appaling crimes, no sane person could disagree. I wasn't kidding about that second part either, it's kinda funny because you consider physical labor (I didn't mean slavery, but hey, whatever floats your boat) more objectifiable than outright killing. Hey, I was trying to turn a profit here! This economy sucks, why not bring back the good old days when labor was free?

All I can say is that if this is not approved/passed I will bring up until it is passed.

I have serious doubts that those measures would be necessary, seems like all the Darths want it back, and the Emperor will honor their legislation, so unless theirs some super-awesome Viceroy power I have, I'm S.O.L.

[Yelnoc]

Rape and murder are absolutely appaling crimes, no sane person could disagree. I wasn't kidding about that second part either, it's kinda funny because you consider physical labor (I didn't mean slavery, but hey, whatever floats your boat) more objectifiable than outright killing. Hey, I was trying to turn a profit here! This economy sucks, why not bring back the good old days when labor was free?

You say it wouldn't be property but workers with life sentences would be de facto slaves of the state.  That seems a bit morally reprehensible to me but, more importantly, someone with nothing to live for would likely have no qualms about somehow sabotaging whatever they were working on, which would reduce efficiency.  As far as economics go, do the economic benefits of the prisoners' labor outweigh the cost of maintaining them?

And tb75, do you still want to write it?

EDIT:
And Taft, I'm (hopefully) about to become the secretary of internal affairs so I believe (at least in theory) you could exercise your powers as Viceroy to take the legislation off the floor.  I think, we would probably have to check the constitution and law code.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     To my knowledge the Viceroy can refuse to open a final vote, but that's about it. In that case, the Legislature can open a final vote anyway with a vote of three-fourths in the affirmative (effectively unanimous since we only have three members). Taft's ability to kill this amendment would most likely come down to whether or not your successor would want to go forward with it.

[Yelnoc]

I read Initiative 165 and it seems pretty comprehensive.  The only real affect of my amendments would be to define "First Degree/Aggravated Murder" which seems a bit superfluous.  So I think we can get away with just the first bill to repeal Initiative 229.

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[Mr. Taft Republican]

You say it wouldn't be property but workers with life sentences would be de facto slaves of the state.  That seems a bit morally reprehensible to me but, more importantly, someone with nothing to live for would likely have no qualms about somehow sabotaging whatever they were working on, which would reduce efficiency.  As far as economics go, do the economic benefits of the prisoners' labor outweigh the cost of maintaining them?

EDIT:
And Taft, I'm (hopefully) about to become the secretary of internal affairs so I believe (at least in theory) you could exercise your powers as Viceroy to take the legislation off the floor.  I think, we would probably have to check the constitution and law code.

That's true I suppose. I don't see how labor is considered reprehensible when the alternative is death, ask the one's with no choice which they would prefer, and I'm certain they'd take my option. As for sabotage, prisons are essentially police states, so their work would be heavily scrutinized by security forces and made sure to not be harmful to buyers.

Hmm... I'll have to go through the wiki and check it out. Also, congrats on the promotion!

     To my knowledge the Viceroy can refuse to open a final vote, but that's about it.

Weak!

[Associate Justice PiT]

     To my knowledge the Viceroy can refuse to open a final vote, but that's about it.

Weak!

     In practice it's actually equivalent to vetoing the bill, except that it doesn't directly take it out of consideration, so it is possible for the bill's sponsor to refuse to withdraw it & thereby create gridlock in the Legislature. I also remember now that we wanted to pass an amendment that would require the Viceroy's assent to override a veto, though that wouldn't help with this since it is an amendment & so I don't have to sign it.

[Yelnoc]

You say it wouldn't be property but workers with life sentences would be de facto slaves of the state.  That seems a bit morally reprehensible to me but, more importantly, someone with nothing to live for would likely have no qualms about somehow sabotaging whatever they were working on, which would reduce efficiency.  As far as economics go, do the economic benefits of the prisoners' labor outweigh the cost of maintaining them?

EDIT:
And Taft, I'm (hopefully) about to become the secretary of internal affairs so I believe (at least in theory) you could exercise your powers as Viceroy to take the legislation off the floor.  I think, we would probably have to check the constitution and law code.

That's true I suppose. I don't see how labor is considered reprehensible when the alternative is death, ask the one's with no choice which they would prefer, and I'm certain they'd take my option. As for sabotage, prisons are essentially police states, so their work would be heavily scrutinized by security forces and made sure to not be harmful to buyers.

Hmm... I'll have to go through the wiki and check it out. Also, congrats on the promotion!

When I hear forced labor, I think of slaves picking cotton and sex slaves.  Maybe if you outlined a detailed, humane plan I would give it some thought.  And thanks, I'm excited.

To the other Darths; read my last post.  I would like to put it up to a vote ASAP but I need some feedback.

[Dancing with Myself]

I like it and vote aye for it

[Yelnoc]

Alright then, I now officially put the Reinstatement of Capital Punishment up to a vote.  If tb75 doesn't make it back in time I will count his affirmation as an absentee vote.

Aye.

[Dancing with Myself]

Aye

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Aye

[Yelnoc]

And the bill passes...

[Associate Justice PiT]

     For a while I didn't think you folks were going to get it passed in time to go on the ballot this weekend.

[Yelnoc]

    For a while I didn't think you folks were going to get it passed in time to go on the ballot this weekend.

Teehee...

Now fo' dis one.

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[Associate Justice PiT]

     One thing, the convenient number is actually 5.8%. We can discuss lowering it more another day.

     Another thing, I think we should preserve the lower rates for start-up businesses. Keep 0% for first-year businesses & lower to, oh, 3.5% for second-year businesses?

[Yelnoc]

     One thing, the convenient number is actually 5.8%. We can discuss lowering it more another day.

     Another thing, I think we should preserve the lower rates for start-up businesses. Keep 0% for first-year businesses & lower to, oh, 3.5% for second-year businesses?

That was a typo.  As to graduating things; if you are willing to crunch those numbers, be my guest.  I don't know where we will find the statistics to actually make a budget on those numbers.  It's a great idea in theory but maybe a bit impractical for a fantasy region.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     One thing, the convenient number is actually 5.8%. We can discuss lowering it more another day.

     Another thing, I think we should preserve the lower rates for start-up businesses. Keep 0% for first-year businesses & lower to, oh, 3.5% for second-year businesses?

That was a typo.  As to graduating things; if you are willing to crunch those numbers, be my guest.  I don't know where we will find the statistics to actually make a budget on those numbers.  It's a great idea in theory but maybe a bit impractical for a fantasy region.

     I am pretty certain that almost all corporate income is earned by businesses that have operated for more than 24 months, so I think we can essentially ignore the effects of the graduated rates. It's just something to put in there to encourage new business creation.

[Yelnoc]

     One thing, the convenient number is actually 5.8%. We can discuss lowering it more another day.

     Another thing, I think we should preserve the lower rates for start-up businesses. Keep 0% for first-year businesses & lower to, oh, 3.5% for second-year businesses?

That was a typo.  As to graduating things; if you are willing to crunch those numbers, be my guest.  I don't know where we will find the statistics to actually make a budget on those numbers.  It's a great idea in theory but maybe a bit impractical for a fantasy region.

     I am pretty certain that almost all corporate income is earned by businesses that have operated for more than 24 months, so I think we can essentially ignore the effects of the graduated rates. It's just something to put in there to encourage new business creation.

So we would say we have these graduated rates but actually assume that all businesses are taxed the same when making the budget?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     One thing, the convenient number is actually 5.8%. We can discuss lowering it more another day.

     Another thing, I think we should preserve the lower rates for start-up businesses. Keep 0% for first-year businesses & lower to, oh, 3.5% for second-year businesses?

That was a typo.  As to graduating things; if you are willing to crunch those numbers, be my guest.  I don't know where we will find the statistics to actually make a budget on those numbers.  It's a great idea in theory but maybe a bit impractical for a fantasy region.

     I am pretty certain that almost all corporate income is earned by businesses that have operated for more than 24 months, so I think we can essentially ignore the effects of the graduated rates. It's just something to put in there to encourage new business creation.

So we would say we have these graduated rates but actually assume that all businesses are taxed the same when making the budget?

     Pretty much. The difference in revenue would likely be impossible to calculate, but I expect that it would be negligible anyway.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Im just trying to feel which way the wind its blowing, how would the members of the Assembly feel if I introduced a bill of condemnation regarding the election for Governor in the NE? It seems to be controversial, with the apparent "Governor" (Giovanni) not even being a citizen of the region.