Haiti Question

[Hash]

We have occupied Haiti before, for extended periods of time.

And that wasn't a good idea in the long run.

[Frodo]

It's as if the Haitian people have heard of my suggestion:

As food distribution improves, Haitians want U.S to 'take over'

By Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, February 1, 2010

PORT-AU-PRINCE, HAITI -- International relief organizations backed by American soldiers delivered hundreds of tons of rice to homeless residents of the Haitian capital Sunday, laboring to ease a food shortage that has left countless thousands struggling to find enough to eat.

But even as food-aid workers enjoyed their most successful day since the Jan. 12 earthquake, the increasingly prominent role of U.S. troops and civilians in the capital is creating high expectations that the Obama administration is struggling to contain.

The needs are extraordinary, and the common refrain is that the Americans will provide.

"I want the Americans to take over the country. The Haitian government can't do anything for us," said Jean-Louis Geffrard, a laborer who lives under a tarp in the crowded square. "When we tell the government we're hungry, the government says, 'We're hungry, too.' "

Added Canga Matthieu, a medical student whose school was destroyed: "The American government should take care of us."

"They're well organized. The United States is the richest country in the world, and they can help."

But help has its limits, U.S. officials emphasize in their public statements and in their interactions with Haitians. "You will have a friend and partner in the United States of America today and going forward," President Obama said the day after the earthquake. But U.S. officials here make it clear that the American government is not responsible for rebuilding the ravaged country.

[SPC]

Absolutely not. They're impoverishment is a least partly because the United States has been intervening in their affairs for over 120 years.

[KeeptheChange]

Given that Haiti is practically at its knees without a functioning government, if their president requests that the United States occupy and run the country (at least temporarily) until it gets back on its feet, should we do so? 

No.  Haiti is a poster child for uselessness.  Why spend good money after bad?  The same applies to relief efforts.  And before anyone accuses me of lacking compassion, please explain what is compassionate about sending money and supplies to a country where roving bands of thugs will simply appropriate it and sell it to the highest bidder? It's Somalia all over again.

Let Haiti burn.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100208/NEWS16/2080342

Toledo has an interesting way of raising money for Haiti

[Хahar 🤔]

Given that Haiti is practically at its knees without a functioning government, if their president requests that the United States occupy and run the country (at least temporarily) until it gets back on its feet, should we do so? 

No.  Haiti is a poster child for uselessness.  Why spend good money after bad?  The same applies to relief efforts.  And before anyone accuses me of lacking compassion, please explain what is compassionate about sending money and supplies to a country where roving bands of thugs will simply appropriate it and sell it to the highest bidder? It's Somalia all over again.

Let Haiti burn.

You're a bad person.

[KeeptheChange]

Given that Haiti is practically at its knees without a functioning government, if their president requests that the United States occupy and run the country (at least temporarily) until it gets back on its feet, should we do so? 

No.  Haiti is a poster child for uselessness.  Why spend good money after bad?  The same applies to relief efforts.  And before anyone accuses me of lacking compassion, please explain what is compassionate about sending money and supplies to a country where roving bands of thugs will simply appropriate it and sell it to the highest bidder? It's Somalia all over again.

Let Haiti burn.

You're a bad person.

Sorry you feel that way.  Haiti is a pisshole we have been pissing money down for over a century.  Why hasn't it helped?  And we are not the only country that has helped Haiti over the years.

Liberals had better learn a lesson from Haiti.  You can't solve the problems of poverty by throwing fistfulls of money at them.  Some people and, apparently, some cultures don't WANT to improve themselves.  They deserve whatever they get.  Now, I am not saying we should do anything to make life worse for them.  I am just saying we should learn the lesson -- fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

You should try to interest yourself in the word...cooperation. That's a cool concept in which your compassion, given you assume you have some, could find a way to express itself beyond 'throwing money'.

[Hash]

You should try to interest yourself in the word...cooperation. That's a cool concept in which your compassion, given you assume you have some, could find a way to express itself beyond 'throwing money'.

Don't try to inject intelligence and common sense into a irrecoverable retard. It's quite futile.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

You should try to interest yourself in the word...cooperation. That's a cool concept in which your compassion, given you assume you have some, could find a way to express itself beyond 'throwing money'.

Don't try to inject intelligence and common sense into a irrecoverable retard. It's quite futile.

Oh, I don't think I would go in a passionate debate with him, but just to make exist this concept that he seems to have deleted. And anyways I'll do so if I want . And, well, one person is rarely one person, it's most of time a representation of something bigger, especially in this case here.

Who cares about Rush Limbaugh that's just a retard, irrelevant, right? If I can't have Rush Limbaugh to talk to on radio, but just KeeptheChange on Atlas Forum and if I want it, I'll do so I think.

[KeeptheChange]

You should try to interest yourself in the word...cooperation. That's a cool concept in which your compassion, given you assume you have some, could find a way to express itself beyond 'throwing money'.

I do believe in compassion.  But let me ask you this.

If you have a friend or neighbor who uses crack, and he keeps crying about how he's poor, unemployed, sick and needy...you might, very understandably, want to help him.  So you give him some money and offer to drive him to rehab.  He takes the money, says thanks and toots up.  A week later, he comes back again.  Do you give him more money?  Please tell me you wouldn't, because you seem smart.


Of course you wouldn't.  It's the same with nations.  Only in this case, Haiti has come begging to us for a hundred years or more...always with their hand out, pleading disaster or poverty or civil war.  Now yes, those things are real and they did happen.  But you don't just keep handing them money hoping, "this time, they will change".  The place is a craphole and until the people there start behaving like human beings instead of animals (ever heard of necklacing? Google it.), why should we keep enabling them.

Let it burn.

[Хahar 🤔]

Only whites are real people, yeah. Those ns are subhuman.

[KeeptheChange]

Only whites are real people, yeah. Those ns are subhuman.

Good heavens, when will you leftists get over the whole race thing?  Please look at my post history, particularly the thread about David Duke (which some asshole hijacked and turned into a rant about pro-family views on homosexuality of all thngs). 

I think racism is disgusting and wrong.  Always. 

The problem with Haiti is not the color of its citizens' skin.  It is the choices its citizens have made to live in perpetual squalor, to behave like violent animals and criminals and to consistently elect or tolerate leaders who do the same. What we are doing is throwing good money after bad. No sane person or country does that.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

If ever you're actually open to reason, let's try again:

Cooperation.

You said it yourself, about a guy on crack, you would send him in rehab, yes, giving him money wouldn't help him on the long term.

That's what cooperation is, not just throwing money, but finding plans with them in order to well use the money, and not just by charity but because you will make a productive place that will develop concrete and abstract wealth on the long term that would benefit to everybody.

You don't know much about the history of Haiti, right? They have been under several direct or indirect imperialist policies during a long time, from France and US. And the place is a good spot for hurricanes for a while now. Yes, they haven't always made some good choices either but, so what?

Unless you think as some guys in the US apparently that they are responsible for this earthquake that has put the rest of their society in dust (ya know the pact with the devil and so forth...), you would put the blame on them to have lived an earthquake??

No matter how a bad a guy has been, if he needs some help and if you can give some, then I don't how does it morally fit not to give it...

And help is not just pure stupid charity that 'throwing money' is, if you're actually interested to help then take a look at cooperation.

You say you believe in compassion, so do I! I can see it exists! The question is whether you have some!

On the other hand, I don't see how letting them 'burn' will help them, and I don't see where is the compassion here.

And what are you saying with begging with their hands out during years?? They have made national debts, as any other nations, period, do you already remind of Haitians begging for charity for something. And anyways anyone who ask for help, if someone can provide it, it's normal that one does, isn't it? Here they did, they needed it, we could carry it on, we did it, everything is normal, isn't it?

If you're actually interested in compassion, learn about cooperation.

[Хahar 🤔]

Benoît, don't you see? Haiti is poor because of an active choice of every single Haitian.

[KeeptheChange]

Benoît, don't you see? Haiti is poor because of an active choice of every single Haitian.

Basically, yes.

Let me frame the question differently.  In the 1600's, small bands of settlers came to this country with a vision for building a nation out of nothing. They had no government dole.  They had no absurd notions about being entitled to "a hand up".  They had their wits, their work ethic and their religious faith.  The Haitians had exactly the same thing.  (Although, it could be argued that those who settled what became the USA were worse off...because they were beset by repeated Indian massacres and, later, under the thumb of a tax-happy King.)  But let's call it even. 


Why did the Haitian experiment fail?  Surely you would not suggest it is because the Haitian is intrinsically inferior to the white European?  I sure wouldn't.  A Haitian is every bit as capable Tof intelligence, hard work, courage and personal responsibility as anyone else.  Given the liberal insistence on the equality of races (something they are absolutely right about), I find it shocking that anyone claiming to be liberal would suggest otherwise.  So I shall assume you agree.

Haiti is a nation of failures, with a history of "epic fail" because the people have made that choice.  They have chosen to tolerate dictators.  They have chosen to accept foreign welfare, rather than relying on their own wits and work. They have chosen an attitude of victimization and entitlement to endless reparation because of the crime of slavery.

So yes...the statement stands.  Haiti is a crap hole and its people are not worth saving.  The only ray of hope I have is that perhaps a Haitian leader or movement will arise that realizes this. And perhaps they will yet choose to live differently.  I have my doubts but I would be happy to be proved wrong!!!!

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Haiti is a nation of failures, with a history of "epic fail" because the people have made that choice.  They have chosen to tolerate dictators.  They have chosen to accept foreign welfare, rather than relying on their own wits and work. They have chosen an attitude of victimization and entitlement to endless reparation because of the crime of slavery.

Then, you don't know a lot about the history of Haiti.

Well, outside of the fact that they have been under direct and indirect imperialism for a while, I've always said they also had a part of responsibility in their situation, but that's just a part, because they are not living on a wonderful piece of Earth (constant hurricanes) either and they have been dominated by 2 big empires on the long term.

So, by corruption and by wrong choices of leader (well basically the only one they could have actually chosen, Jean-Bertrand Aristide), they had a part of responsibility in their situation, but so what?

When someone is in help isn't it normal to help him if you can?

Then, it belongs to you not to be stupid and to really be compassionate, and then to carry actual help, not to only relieve your conscious by throwing some money thinking 'oh good I've helped', if you see that this help doesn't work and if you continue it you're just hypocrite, you're not helping, if you really compassionate and if you really wanna help you have to find the more effective way to do so.

That's what cooperation is. Cooperation is working on the long term all together to find good solutions.

Haiti is a crap hole and its people are not worth saving.

If you're actually interested in compassion, learn about cooperation.

[JSojourner]

I could be completely incorrect and I may have misheard, but I vaguely remember an NPR story about how a disproportionate number of successful surgeons, chemists, artists, musicians and engineers have been Haitian.  That is, compared with countries of similar population.

Does anyone have information that could corroborate this?

[Coburn In 2012]

I could be completely incorrect and I may have misheard, but I vaguely remember an NPR story about how a disproportionate number of successful surgeons, chemists, artists, musicians and engineers have been Haitian.  That is, compared with countries of similar population.

Does anyone have information that could corroborate this?

no because its not true

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I could be completely incorrect and I may have misheard, but I vaguely remember an NPR story about how a disproportionate number of successful surgeons, chemists, artists, musicians and engineers have been Haitian.  That is, compared with countries of similar population.

Does anyone have information that could corroborate this?

Yes, that's something I heard very often too. Unluckily, they use to migrate in Europe, US, and especially Canada, in which they make brilliant careers. That's good for their families, because they send money to them, but not for the country since they doesn't make it profit of their skills, they choose their family instead of their state, but hey who would someone who doesn't live that kind of situations would reproach it to them.

We can add painters and writers as well.

[SPC]

I could be completely incorrect and I may have misheard, but I vaguely remember an NPR story about how a disproportionate number of successful surgeons, chemists, artists, musicians and engineers have been Haitian.  That is, compared with countries of similar population.

Does anyone have information that could corroborate this?

I don't know, but if true, it would demonstrate that their problems are more rooted in policies than any lack of ability. It would prove that they have potential to thrive if not for their socialism.

[Хahar 🤔]

I could be completely incorrect and I may have misheard, but I vaguely remember an NPR story about how a disproportionate number of successful surgeons, chemists, artists, musicians and engineers have been Haitian.  That is, compared with countries of similar population.

Does anyone have information that could corroborate this?

I don't know, but if true, it would demonstrate that their problems are more rooted in policies than any lack of ability. It would prove that they have potential to thrive if not for their socialism.

Like this socialism?

The French Revolution paved the way for a socialist dictatorship

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I could be completely incorrect and I may have misheard, but I vaguely remember an NPR story about how a disproportionate number of successful surgeons, chemists, artists, musicians and engineers have been Haitian.  That is, compared with countries of similar population.

Does anyone have information that could corroborate this?

I don't know, but if true, it would demonstrate that their problems are more rooted in policies than any lack of ability. It would prove that they have potential to thrive if not for their socialism.

lol, any humans that are given an education are able of something. It's just that it's hard for people that can do something for a state to do it when a said state almost doesn't exist and when meanwhile their family is in need, I guess. While it would have to be encouraged, it's easy to say, harder to go for it.

Oh and yes, the socialism comments were not serious, were they? Arguments?

[SPC]

http://www.heritage.org/Index/Country/Haiti

[Mechaman]

Burn it. Then eat the charred remains.

Solves our hunger problem right there.