Should the US sign the Ottawa Treaty (landmine ban)?

[Јas]

Why do you think Finland, Egypt and Poland haven't signed on?

Finland have committed to ratification over the coming years. In the mean time, they're spending time and money on alternative defensive options.
Poland have signed, they just have't ratified yet.

Both have, as I understand it, nonetheless by and large complied with the terms of the treaty.

Egypt is pissed that they've been left with masses of landmines on their territory since WWII and that they bear the major burden of dealing with it. If those who laid the mines took responsibility for clearing them, Egypt could well change their tune.

[dead0man]

Dead0man, we don't use the mines banned in the treaty, but we need to avoid signing the treaty?

We still use them in Korea.  The Korean DMZ isn't a place civilians hang out.  Under the Ottawa Treaty we'd have to begin removing these and that's not going to happen until the state of war between North and South Korea is over.  Period.  And this nugget is what has kept Bill Clinton, Bush the Lesser and now Obama from signing.  It should be noted the US spends more on mine removal than anybody else.  And no jokers, we aren't just cleaning up our own messes.  Most of it is spent in Africa.  Any idea how much the EU has spent on mine removal outside of Europe?  

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Ones we laying down now?  0%  The only landmines the US has used since 1991 have been claymores and those are almost exclusivly used in a "command detonation" mode.  Meaning a human watches the mine and blows it when he wants to.

Why do you think Finland, Egypt and Poland haven't signed on?

Finland have committed to ratification over the coming years. In the mean time, they're spending time and money on alternative defensive options.
Poland have signed, they just have't ratified yet.

Both have, as I understand it, nonetheless by and large complied with the terms of the treaty.

Just like the US (outside of Korea).

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I agree with you.  I'd assume they are mostly English mines?

[Јas]

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I agree with you.  I'd assume they are mostly English mines?

Both British and German. No idea what the relative proportions are.

They laid quite a few themselves in and around the Sinai a few decades back fearing the Israelis. The WWII mines outnumber these by at around 3 or 4 to 1 though.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The only reason the US hasn't signed is Korea. It has even said it would sign if an exemption was made for the mines in the Korean DMZ. So this has nothing to do with Putin (dead0man has been playing too much Modern Warfare 2 obviously, please give me a scenario where the US would use landmines against Russia.)

[dead0man]

I've not once mentioned Russia as a reason the US doesn't sign.  I've never played MW2 either.  I've repeatedly mentioned Korea as the main reason, so we are in agreement.  Yet you're still a douche.

[JohnFKennedy]

I've not once mentioned Russia as a reason the US doesn't sign.  I've never played MW2 either.  I've repeatedly mentioned Korea as the main reason, so we are in agreement.  Yet you're still a douche.

The US still uses claymores..... a lot.  The Korean DMZ is full of regular mines.

As long as the PRC and Putin aren't signing.  As long as N.Korea is still run by a douche.  As long as the US needs to protect its assets against large numbers of low tech enemies we will need to use landmines.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I've not once mentioned Russia as a reason the US doesn't sign.  I've never played MW2 either.  I've repeatedly mentioned Korea as the main reason, so we are in agreement.  Yet you're still a douche.

The US still uses claymores..... a lot.  The Korean DMZ is full of regular mines.

As long as the PRC and Putin aren't signing.  As long as N.Korea is still run by a douche.  As long as the US needs to protect its assets against large numbers of low tech enemies we will need to use landmines.

Beat me to it.

[dead0man]

Ahhh geez.  Color me embarassed.  But come on....it was so important I mentioned it once...in a list.  How many times did I mention Korea?  Ahh, that's not important.  I mentioned Putin once so clearly the entire reason I'm against signing is Russia.  Excellent job as usual BRTD!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But you are basically arguing even if there was a DMZ exemption the US should not sign (which it would in that instance.)

[dead0man]

Yeah, we probably would and I'd still be against it.  I wouldn't argue too hard against signing in such a scenario because I know that if the sh**t were to hit the fan that we'd make 'em again if we felt we really needed to (just like everybody else that has signed).

[Scam of God]

Yeah, we probably would and I'd still be against it.  I wouldn't argue too hard against signing in such a scenario because I know that if the sh**t were to hit the fan that we'd make 'em again if we felt we really needed to (just like everybody else that has signed).

Armaments subsidies: the only subsidies dead0man doesn't oppose.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yeah, we probably would and I'd still be against it.  I wouldn't argue too hard against signing in such a scenario because I know that if the sh**t were to hit the fan that we'd make 'em again if we felt we really needed to (just like everybody else that has signed).

So you do believe there is a likely scenario where the US would use landmines against Russia. Which is insanely fucking stupid.

[Mechaman]

I don't care about the treaty, but landmines should be banned regardless.

Better yet, fedgov should be banned from spending any money on any weapons.

Righteous!

[dead0man]

Yeah, we probably would and I'd still be against it.  I wouldn't argue too hard against signing in such a scenario because I know that if the sh**t were to hit the fan that we'd make 'em again if we felt we really needed to (just like everybody else that has signed).

So you do believe there is a likely scenario where the US would use landmines against Russia. Which is insanely fucking stupid.

Yes, "likely" is exactly what I said.  :giant rolleyes: